Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

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Sushan
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Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Sushan »

This topic is about the May 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White


All children intuitively know they are overflowing with talent and oozing with potential, and they fully intend to express it. However, things happened, and they forget all about it
. (Location 126 - Kindle version)

Children are born with various talents and abilities. Almost all parents are proud of their kids when they are young. But when time goes on and those children become adults that potential which was seen when they were young becomes less. And also the parents become worrying about the future of their children, and try to guide them along various paths. And the conflicts begin!!

What might be the reason for this drastic change? Why children loose the potential that they show initially? Is it because the parents try to guide them? Or is it because of some other reason? Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?
Last edited by Sushan on May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: To include the introduction
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
gad-fly
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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by gad-fly »

Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am
All children intuitively know they are overflowing with talent and oozing with potential, and they fully intend to express it. However, things happened, and they forget all about it
. (Location 126 - Kindle version)

Children are born with various talents and abilities. Almost all parents are proud of their kids when they are young. But when time goes on and those children become adults that potential which was seen when they were young becomes less. And also the parents become worrying about the future of their children, and try to guide them along various paths. And the conflicts begin!!

What might be the reason for this drastic change? Why children loose the potential that they show initially? Is it because the parents try to guide them? Or is it because of some other reason? Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?

what drastic change? There is no change as potential at best remains potent but yet to be fulfilled, lasting a lifetime. Answer to the question is in the dictionary.

Should parents intervene? Yes and No. Depends on many factors and circumstances. It will be a long story.
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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by heracleitos »

Parents usually attempt to make the difficult exercise of balancing guidance, which is obviously always needed, and the child's preferences.

But then again, there is another problem in this context.

If you ask a teenage girl, "Why are you wearing these clothes?", if she is honest about it, she will answer, "Because all my friends are wearing them too."

Corporations, government, and other organizations understand that this as an incredible opportunity to manipulate the masses.

Most people do not choose.

Their self-sovereignty is actually fake.

Most people, both adults and children, find themselves group-renormalized into believing and doing what large-scale manipulators want them to believe and do.

The only solution is to get there first, before it is too late.

It is necessary to teach children to say "no" to especially large-scale manipulation.

The larger the number of people who are manipulable, and the more manipulable they are, the more it pays off for large-scale manipulators to manipulate. Therefore, the more it becomes necessary to institute increasingly stronger anti-manipulation measures. In that respect, western society is rotten to the core.

The solution consists in imbuing one particular strong, core belief, that serves as the main benchmark for truth, and to resolutely reject all messages that are contrary to it.

As Nassim Taleb so aptly wrote in "The most intolerant wins. Dictatorship of a small minority", it is a small, highly intolerant minority that ultimately controls society. You want your children to join the winners.

Hence, it is necessary to teach children to be intolerant, and to reject, repudiate, reprobate, and utterly condemn the fake beliefs held by the manipulated masses of losers.
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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am This topic is about the May 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White


All children intuitively know they are overflowing with talent and oozing with potential, and they fully intend to express it. However, things happened, and they forget all about it
. (Location 126 - Kindle version)

Children are born with various talents and abilities. Almost all parents are proud of their kids when they are young. But when time goes on and those children become adults that potential which was seen when they were young becomes less. And also the parents become worrying about the future of their children, and try to guide them along various paths. And the conflicts begin!!

What might be the reason for this drastic change? Why children loose the potential that they show initially? Is it because the parents try to guide them? Or is it because of some other reason? Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?
Children don't have talents and abilities, they have potential talents and abilities. The big change is when it comes time to put in the hard work to realize those potentials and we all discover that hard work isn't fun (for the vast majority), so who is going to put in the work? The answer is a small fraction of the total, thus why only a few occupy the pointy top of the pyramid. Which is the way it should be.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?
For all of our history, parents have cared for their children into maturity. For the period of their childhood, parents make most/all of their decisions for them, as they have much greater understanding of things the child is not yet aware of. If this is a good way of raising children, and I would say that it is, then children should not be allowed to choose their own path, and parents should definitely intervene. If children are mature enough to make their own decisions, they are no longer children. What more can be said on this matter? 🤔
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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by gad-fly »

Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am This topic is about the May 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White


All children intuitively know they are overflowing with talent and oozing with potential, and they fully intend to express it. However, things happened, and they forget all about it
. (Location 126 - Kindle version)

Children are born with various talents and abilities. Almost all parents are proud of their kids when they are young. But when time goes on and those children become adults that potential which was seen when they were young becomes less. And also the parents become worrying about the future of their children, and try to guide them along various paths. And the conflicts begin!!

What might be the reason for this drastic change? Why children loose the potential that they show initially? Is it because the parents try to guide them? Or is it because of some other reason? Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?
In your second paragraph, you have asked six questions in succession. Perhaps your indicative answers to some may help lead the discussion.

On the first question, it s not clear what the "drastic change" is about. It is "forget all about it" and "becomes less". How drastic is this change? Is it what you have observed, or is it a matter of your own opinion, since potential is hidden from view. Potential can lie dormant and disappearing, to revive suddenly and strongly. Potential is no big deal unless realized.

A person is born like a piece of blank paper. Life is written on it word by word, sometimes rapidly, but often slowly and thoughtfully. It goes without saying that the writer should be none other than the owner, but fine to direct and guide him as appropriate, especially if he is stuck. The potential of the paper diminishes with more words on the paper. The paper filled, no potential remains, and life is over. Some, not so lucky, do not have time to fill the paper. Should we help children write, or write some words on their behalf? Is that is what you are asking? If not, I call it a day.
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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Sushan »

gad-fly wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 6:02 pm
Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am
All children intuitively know they are overflowing with talent and oozing with potential, and they fully intend to express it. However, things happened, and they forget all about it
. (Location 126 - Kindle version)

Children are born with various talents and abilities. Almost all parents are proud of their kids when they are young. But when time goes on and those children become adults that potential which was seen when they were young becomes less. And also the parents become worrying about the future of their children, and try to guide them along various paths. And the conflicts begin!!

What might be the reason for this drastic change? Why children loose the potential that they show initially? Is it because the parents try to guide them? Or is it because of some other reason? Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?

what drastic change? There is no change as potential at best remains potent but yet to be fulfilled, lasting a lifetime. Answer to the question is in the dictionary.

Should parents intervene? Yes and No. Depends on many factors and circumstances. It will be a long story.
Well, let's say that the potential lasts for a lifetime. But what is the use of such an existence if the expected results are not fulfilled? Life is short and the time for achievements is limited. So we cannot wait expecting a child (or a young fellow) to show his/her full potential someday and achieve what he/she should have naturally achieved.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Sushan
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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Sushan »

heracleitos wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 8:27 pm Parents usually attempt to make the difficult exercise of balancing guidance, which is obviously always needed, and the child's preferences.

But then again, there is another problem in this context.

If you ask a teenage girl, "Why are you wearing these clothes?", if she is honest about it, she will answer, "Because all my friends are wearing them too."

Corporations, government, and other organizations understand that this as an incredible opportunity to manipulate the masses.

Most people do not choose.

Their self-sovereignty is actually fake.

Most people, both adults and children, find themselves group-renormalized into believing and doing what large-scale manipulators want them to believe and do.

The only solution is to get there first, before it is too late.

It is necessary to teach children to say "no" to especially large-scale manipulation.

The larger the number of people who are manipulable, and the more manipulable they are, the more it pays off for large-scale manipulators to manipulate. Therefore, the more it becomes necessary to institute increasingly stronger anti-manipulation measures. In that respect, western society is rotten to the core.

The solution consists in imbuing one particular strong, core belief, that serves as the main benchmark for truth, and to resolutely reject all messages that are contrary to it.

As Nassim Taleb so aptly wrote in "The most intolerant wins. Dictatorship of a small minority", it is a small, highly intolerant minority that ultimately controls society. You want your children to join the winners.

Hence, it is necessary to teach children to be intolerant, and to reject, repudiate, reprobate, and utterly condemn the fake beliefs held by the manipulated masses of losers.
Quite true. Even Abraham Lincoln expected his son's teacher to teach him how to avoid the band wagon. It is a good thing if someone can get away from peer pressure and do what he/she like and correct. Teenage is the time when peer pressure and its effect is at its maximum, and that is the main reason for conflicts between parents and teenage kids. So if the parents can teach their children how to avoid large scale manipulations, it is the best guidance that they can offer.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: May 4th, 2022, 2:23 am
Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am This topic is about the May 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White


All children intuitively know they are overflowing with talent and oozing with potential, and they fully intend to express it. However, things happened, and they forget all about it
. (Location 126 - Kindle version)

Children are born with various talents and abilities. Almost all parents are proud of their kids when they are young. But when time goes on and those children become adults that potential which was seen when they were young becomes less. And also the parents become worrying about the future of their children, and try to guide them along various paths. And the conflicts begin!!

What might be the reason for this drastic change? Why children loose the potential that they show initially? Is it because the parents try to guide them? Or is it because of some other reason? Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?
Children don't have talents and abilities, they have potential talents and abilities. The big change is when it comes time to put in the hard work to realize those potentials and we all discover that hard work isn't fun (for the vast majority), so who is going to put in the work? The answer is a small fraction of the total, thus why only a few occupy the pointy top of the pyramid. Which is the way it should be.
I can partially agree with you. Yes, the required hard work is not so fun and only a little number is courageous enough to carry on with it. So the top part of social the pyramid is tiny.

But what about the genetic potential some children carry? Parents with high IQ often have kids with high IQ. And some of them even show them since childhood, like amazing mathematical skills. I think children are actually born with a certain amount of talents and abilities, with the potential to learn further and achieve further.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Sushan »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 4th, 2022, 8:09 am
Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?
For all of our history, parents have cared for their children into maturity. For the period of their childhood, parents make most/all of their decisions for them, as they have much greater understanding of things the child is not yet aware of. If this is a good way of raising children, and I would say that it is, then children should not be allowed to choose their own path, and parents should definitely intervene. If children are mature enough to make their own decisions, they are no longer children. What more can be said on this matter? 🤔
Yes, parents have more experience in life and they have lived their lives for a certain time. So they know good and bad aspects of decisions by experience. But is experience the only thing that governs decision making?

Usually parents and children belong to different generations in relation to technology, science, thinking ways, etc. So, even possibly immature, children do have their own views and ideas. But they can be unfathomable to the parents because of the generation difference. In such a situation if the children is completely taken away from the decision making process, I think the parents may do a harm than doing good.

Children are considered children by their age, and not by the ability to make decisions or the level of maturity. There are adults who act like children, but they are not called children because their ages have passed the limit within which they can be called children.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Sushan »

gad-fly wrote: May 6th, 2022, 11:11 am
Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am This topic is about the May 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White


All children intuitively know they are overflowing with talent and oozing with potential, and they fully intend to express it. However, things happened, and they forget all about it
. (Location 126 - Kindle version)

Children are born with various talents and abilities. Almost all parents are proud of their kids when they are young. But when time goes on and those children become adults that potential which was seen when they were young becomes less. And also the parents become worrying about the future of their children, and try to guide them along various paths. And the conflicts begin!!

What might be the reason for this drastic change? Why children loose the potential that they show initially? Is it because the parents try to guide them? Or is it because of some other reason? Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?
In your second paragraph, you have asked six questions in succession. Perhaps your indicative answers to some may help lead the discussion.

On the first question, it s not clear what the "drastic change" is about. It is "forget all about it" and "becomes less". How drastic is this change? Is it what you have observed, or is it a matter of your own opinion, since potential is hidden from view. Potential can lie dormant and disappearing, to revive suddenly and strongly. Potential is no big deal unless realized.

A person is born like a piece of blank paper. Life is written on it word by word, sometimes rapidly, but often slowly and thoughtfully. It goes without saying that the writer should be none other than the owner, but fine to direct and guide him as appropriate, especially if he is stuck. The potential of the paper diminishes with more words on the paper. The paper filled, no potential remains, and life is over. Some, not so lucky, do not have time to fill the paper. Should we help children write, or write some words on their behalf? Is that is what you are asking? If not, I call it a day.
Some children are late bloomers. In such cases the potentials can be hidden. But some are beeming with potential, and their acts and behaviours show them as well. But even some of such children do not maintain that level of excellence to their adulthood, and that is the drastic change that I talk about. It is not my personal experience, but I have seen such examples.

And I do not think babies are born as blank papers. Yes, they can be directed easily compared to adults since wht they know is less. But they have something that a paper does not have, the genes, which are capable of determining what the baby will become in ten more years.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by gad-fly »

Sushan wrote: May 17th, 2022, 9:38 am
Well, let's say that the potential lasts for a lifetime. But what is the use of such an existence if the expected results are not fulfilled? Life is short and the time for achievements is limited. So we cannot wait expecting a child (or a young fellow) to show his/her full potential someday and achieve what he/she should have naturally achieved.
Potentials are many, but attainments few. Some last a lifetime; some vanish with time. I can see your point about potentials being useless unless realized. The problem is that you can never know in advance. Treat potential like hope, which keeps us alive, kicking, and vibrant. "We cannot wait?" We must wait while we attempt to realize. No paradise NOW.

We are away from the subject matter of parental choice. I suggest it more appropriate on "parental guidance". If so, I would be brief: Yes and No. If on parental choice, my answer is : No, because it can be tragic. It can destroy a life.
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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by gad-fly »

Sushan wrote: May 17th, 2022, 10:07 am
the genes, which are capable of determining what the baby will become in ten more years.
if the genes determine better than you, would you not rather leave the genes alone to choose? You propose, and genes dispose.
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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: May 17th, 2022, 9:54 am
LuckyR wrote: May 4th, 2022, 2:23 am
Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am This topic is about the May 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White


All children intuitively know they are overflowing with talent and oozing with potential, and they fully intend to express it. However, things happened, and they forget all about it
. (Location 126 - Kindle version)

Children are born with various talents and abilities. Almost all parents are proud of their kids when they are young. But when time goes on and those children become adults that potential which was seen when they were young becomes less. And also the parents become worrying about the future of their children, and try to guide them along various paths. And the conflicts begin!!

What might be the reason for this drastic change? Why children loose the potential that they show initially? Is it because the parents try to guide them? Or is it because of some other reason? Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?
Children don't have talents and abilities, they have potential talents and abilities. The big change is when it comes time to put in the hard work to realize those potentials and we all discover that hard work isn't fun (for the vast majority), so who is going to put in the work? The answer is a small fraction of the total, thus why only a few occupy the pointy top of the pyramid. Which is the way it should be.
I can partially agree with you. Yes, the required hard work is not so fun and only a little number is courageous enough to carry on with it. So the top part of social the pyramid is tiny.

But what about the genetic potential some children carry? Parents with high IQ often have kids with high IQ. And some of them even show them since childhood, like amazing mathematical skills. I think children are actually born with a certain amount of talents and abilities, with the potential to learn further and achieve further.
The reality is that most potential is ultimately unrealized, and thus wasted. Those with unrealized potential might as well not have had the potential, for all the good they (didn't) get out of it.

In fact, a child who truly is not talented but puts in the work, will almost always come out ahead of the kid with potential but never works on it. I'll take motivated over talented every day of the week.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

LuckyR wrote: May 18th, 2022, 3:05 am ...

I'll take motivated over talented every day of the week.
It took me an awful lot of years to realise that... 😊
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