Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Use this forum to discuss the May 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White
gad-fly
Posts: 942
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by gad-fly »

LuckyR wrote: May 18th, 2022, 3:05 am
a child who truly is not talented but puts in the work, will almost always come out ahead of the kid with potential but never works on it. I'll take motivated over talented every day of the week.
Assuming your case, what has that got to do with the titled question?
User avatar
Vita
Posts: 30
Joined: February 24th, 2022, 1:07 am
Favorite Philosopher: Dostoevsky
Location: Absent

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Vita »

Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am This topic is about the May 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White


All children intuitively know they are overflowing with talent and oozing with potential, and they fully intend to express it. However, things happened, and they forget all about it
. (Location 126 - Kindle version)

Children are born with various talents and abilities. Almost all parents are proud of their kids when they are young. But when time goes on and those children become adults that potential which was seen when they were young becomes less. And also the parents become worrying about the future of their children, and try to guide them along various paths. And the conflicts begin!!

What might be the reason for this drastic change? Why children loose the potential that they show initially? Is it because the parents try to guide them? Or is it because of some other reason? Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?
No; people generally don’t have enough empathy to know what their child should have when they are young. For instance, some parents want their children to become engineers or scientists but cannot see with their selfish perception that the child loves music. They should still guide them away from immoral jobs. But what a parent can do is teach a child what they need for various careers and lives, like hard work and kindness. They can also give children a wide range of opportunities, like piano lessons as well as STEM camps.
any ideas?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 6414
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by LuckyR »

gad-fly wrote: May 20th, 2022, 8:37 pm
LuckyR wrote: May 18th, 2022, 3:05 am
a child who truly is not talented but puts in the work, will almost always come out ahead of the kid with potential but never works on it. I'll take motivated over talented every day of the week.
Assuming your case, what has that got to do with the titled question?
The OP gushed about the talents that the young supposedly possess. Firstly, children don't have talent, they have potential talent and secondly even if they have talent, motivation is better than talent.
"As usual... it depends."
gad-fly
Posts: 942
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by gad-fly »

LuckyR wrote: May 22nd, 2022, 2:44 am
gad-fly wrote: May 20th, 2022, 8:37 pm
LuckyR wrote: May 18th, 2022, 3:05 am
a child who truly is not talented but puts in the work, will almost always come out ahead of the kid with potential but never works on it. I'll take motivated over talented every day of the week.
Assuming your case, what has that got to do with the titled question?
The OP gushed about the talents that the young supposedly possess. Firstly, children don't have talent, they have potential talent and secondly even if they have talent, motivation is better than talent.
Just curious about your position. Should parents choose for children with potential or none?
gad-fly
Posts: 942
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by gad-fly »

Vita wrote: May 21st, 2022, 9:09 am
Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am
All children intuitively know they are overflowing with talent and oozing with potential.
Why children loose the potential that they show initially? Is it because the parents try to guide them? Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?
No; people generally don’t have enough empathy to know what their child should have when they are young. For instance, some parents want their children to become engineers or scientists but cannot see with their selfish perception that the child loves music. They should still guide them away from immoral jobs. But what a parent can do is teach a child what they need for various careers and lives, like hard work and kindness. They can also give children a wide range of opportunities, like piano lessons as well as STEM camps.
Well said, Vita. As I have mentioned earlier, what children need is guidance appropriate to the circumstance. To choose for them is tyranny, which may result in tragedy to ruin life. The only justification is when they are too young to choose, when they are babies. soon enough, they should be encouraged to be independent, both physically and mentally, the sooner the better.
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 974
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Sushan »

gad-fly wrote: May 17th, 2022, 11:18 am
Sushan wrote: May 17th, 2022, 9:38 am
Well, let's say that the potential lasts for a lifetime. But what is the use of such an existence if the expected results are not fulfilled? Life is short and the time for achievements is limited. So we cannot wait expecting a child (or a young fellow) to show his/her full potential someday and achieve what he/she should have naturally achieved.
Potentials are many, but attainments few. Some last a lifetime; some vanish with time. I can see your point about potentials being useless unless realized. The problem is that you can never know in advance. Treat potential like hope, which keeps us alive, kicking, and vibrant. "We cannot wait?" We must wait while we attempt to realize. No paradise NOW.

We are away from the subject matter of parental choice. I suggest it more appropriate on "parental guidance". If so, I would be brief: Yes and No. If on parental choice, my answer is : No, because it can be tragic. It can destroy a life.
We can have hopes, but we may be wrong. We may develop a liking towards a field which we do not have a potential at all to become successful. But if we fail, then we can be doomed because in life there are no second chances. Prior to this risky approach is the correct time to parental intervention. I am not saying parents are always correct, and sometimes they may have the selfish idea to fulfill their own dreams through their children. Keeping that aside, I think they are quite experienced and they can have a hunch about the true potential of their kids. So their guidance can be quite correct and leading to success. But the children should have a say in the final decision because after all it is the life of that kid, but not his/her parents'.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 974
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Sushan »

gad-fly wrote: May 17th, 2022, 11:58 am
Sushan wrote: May 17th, 2022, 10:07 am
the genes, which are capable of determining what the baby will become in ten more years.
if the genes determine better than you, would you not rather leave the genes alone to choose? You propose, and genes dispose.
Think about people who wish to have a beautiful or a handsome face than they currently have. Think about those who wish to excel in what they do, but still cannot. In such cases, they have proposed, but their genes have disposed. So your genes have a say in what you may or may not achieve by going in a certain path. We cannot change our inheritance. Otherwise the neonatal cancers would have already been cured.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 974
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: May 18th, 2022, 3:05 am
Sushan wrote: May 17th, 2022, 9:54 am
LuckyR wrote: May 4th, 2022, 2:23 am
Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am This topic is about the May 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White



. (Location 126 - Kindle version)

Children are born with various talents and abilities. Almost all parents are proud of their kids when they are young. But when time goes on and those children become adults that potential which was seen when they were young becomes less. And also the parents become worrying about the future of their children, and try to guide them along various paths. And the conflicts begin!!

What might be the reason for this drastic change? Why children loose the potential that they show initially? Is it because the parents try to guide them? Or is it because of some other reason? Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?
Children don't have talents and abilities, they have potential talents and abilities. The big change is when it comes time to put in the hard work to realize those potentials and we all discover that hard work isn't fun (for the vast majority), so who is going to put in the work? The answer is a small fraction of the total, thus why only a few occupy the pointy top of the pyramid. Which is the way it should be.
I can partially agree with you. Yes, the required hard work is not so fun and only a little number is courageous enough to carry on with it. So the top part of social the pyramid is tiny.

But what about the genetic potential some children carry? Parents with high IQ often have kids with high IQ. And some of them even show them since childhood, like amazing mathematical skills. I think children are actually born with a certain amount of talents and abilities, with the potential to learn further and achieve further.
The reality is that most potential is ultimately unrealized, and thus wasted. Those with unrealized potential might as well not have had the potential, for all the good they (didn't) get out of it.

In fact, a child who truly is not talented but puts in the work, will almost always come out ahead of the kid with potential but never works on it. I'll take motivated over talented every day of the week.
Motivation is quite necessary to bring out one's potential. Lack of motivation and proper guidance end up the bright young kids as failed and unsuccessful adults. So, yes, motivation is a key necessity i achieving your goals. But I have seen people who have studied hours a day, yet failed their exams. They try and try again and again, bit they fail again and again. In such scenarios what is lacking is the potential. Maybe they are having a potential in some other area, but they lack the guidance to choose wisely.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 974
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Sushan »

Vita wrote: May 21st, 2022, 9:09 am
Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am This topic is about the May 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White


All children intuitively know they are overflowing with talent and oozing with potential, and they fully intend to express it. However, things happened, and they forget all about it
. (Location 126 - Kindle version)

Children are born with various talents and abilities. Almost all parents are proud of their kids when they are young. But when time goes on and those children become adults that potential which was seen when they were young becomes less. And also the parents become worrying about the future of their children, and try to guide them along various paths. And the conflicts begin!!

What might be the reason for this drastic change? Why children loose the potential that they show initially? Is it because the parents try to guide them? Or is it because of some other reason? Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?
No; people generally don’t have enough empathy to know what their child should have when they are young. For instance, some parents want their children to become engineers or scientists but cannot see with their selfish perception that the child loves music. They should still guide them away from immoral jobs. But what a parent can do is teach a child what they need for various careers and lives, like hard work and kindness. They can also give children a wide range of opportunities, like piano lessons as well as STEM camps.
It is ideal for a parent to teach their kids various talents, abilities, expose them to various opportunities, and let the kid to choose what he/she will become in the future. But in the practical scenario, we are in a race, and the time is limited. There is no enough time to go along many paths and choose the best for you. Lucky ones may get to see several paths, but many do not have that chance. So ultimately it is a leap of faith, and most often the faith is needed to be placed on parental guidance. Some parents are selfish, yes I agree, but many want the best for their children and we see that as selfishness.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
gad-fly
Posts: 942
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by gad-fly »

Sushan wrote: May 22nd, 2022, 10:11 pm But if we fail, then we can be doomed because in life there are no second chances. Prior to this risky approach is the correct time to parental intervention . . . But the children should have a say in the final decision because after all it is the life of that kid, but not his/her parents'.
No second chance, eh. Ask Elon Musk, the richest person in the world, about Space X. No venture, no gain. Fail, fall down, rise up, and fail again. Such is life.

By potential intervention, do you imply guidance? If so, I suggest you be more direct, and to elaborate on what you mean by that. Is it intervention, full stop, or hidden underhanded intervention?

Children have a say in the final decision? Poor Kid. He should be informed in advance of the consequence in dissent from his position. Nevertheless, one in less than ten, I guess, would be lucky enough yo have open-minded parent like you.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 6414
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by LuckyR »

gad-fly wrote: May 22nd, 2022, 12:22 pm
LuckyR wrote: May 22nd, 2022, 2:44 am
gad-fly wrote: May 20th, 2022, 8:37 pm
LuckyR wrote: May 18th, 2022, 3:05 am
a child who truly is not talented but puts in the work, will almost always come out ahead of the kid with potential but never works on it. I'll take motivated over talented every day of the week.
Assuming your case, what has that got to do with the titled question?
The OP gushed about the talents that the young supposedly possess. Firstly, children don't have talent, they have potential talent and secondly even if they have talent, motivation is better than talent.
Just curious about your position. Should parents choose for children with potential or none?
Well, in order to maximize talent, it needs to be worked on long before adulthood. Therefore, before the child has legal autonomy. Also, as I mentioned, in order to work, the kid has to be motivated. Best case scenario, the kid is self motivated (no need for the parent to provide the motivation). This is an uncommon situation, in most cases the parent has to provide some of the motivation.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 6414
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: May 22nd, 2022, 10:18 pm
LuckyR wrote: May 18th, 2022, 3:05 am
Sushan wrote: May 17th, 2022, 9:54 am
LuckyR wrote: May 4th, 2022, 2:23 am

Children don't have talents and abilities, they have potential talents and abilities. The big change is when it comes time to put in the hard work to realize those potentials and we all discover that hard work isn't fun (for the vast majority), so who is going to put in the work? The answer is a small fraction of the total, thus why only a few occupy the pointy top of the pyramid. Which is the way it should be.
I can partially agree with you. Yes, the required hard work is not so fun and only a little number is courageous enough to carry on with it. So the top part of social the pyramid is tiny.

But what about the genetic potential some children carry? Parents with high IQ often have kids with high IQ. And some of them even show them since childhood, like amazing mathematical skills. I think children are actually born with a certain amount of talents and abilities, with the potential to learn further and achieve further.
The reality is that most potential is ultimately unrealized, and thus wasted. Those with unrealized potential might as well not have had the potential, for all the good they (didn't) get out of it.

In fact, a child who truly is not talented but puts in the work, will almost always come out ahead of the kid with potential but never works on it. I'll take motivated over talented every day of the week.
Motivation is quite necessary to bring out one's potential. Lack of motivation and proper guidance end up the bright young kids as failed and unsuccessful adults. So, yes, motivation is a key necessity i achieving your goals. But I have seen people who have studied hours a day, yet failed their exams. They try and try again and again, bit they fail again and again. In such scenarios what is lacking is the potential. Maybe they are having a potential in some other area, but they lack the guidance to choose wisely.
You are correct, there is more to the equation than raw talent and motivation (what's been discussed so far). The missing piece (assuming that there are no glaring physical deficiencies) is the quality of the "practice". That's where instruction comes in.
"As usual... it depends."
gad-fly
Posts: 942
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by gad-fly »

LuckyR wrote: May 24th, 2022, 3:30 am
Sushan wrote: May 22nd, 2022, 10:18 pm
LuckyR wrote: May 18th, 2022, 3:05 am
Sushan wrote: May 17th, 2022, 9:54 am
You are correct, there is more to the equation than raw talent and motivation (what's been discussed so far).
Motivation against potential talent is another issue. One serious and inevitable pitfall in discussion is to lead astray to something unrelated/separate, despite what has been clearly stated in the title. Yes or No to a question (or Yes and No, don't know, and won't tell) is required response, followed by elaboration if necessary.
User avatar
Vita
Posts: 30
Joined: February 24th, 2022, 1:07 am
Favorite Philosopher: Dostoevsky
Location: Absent

Re: Should children be allowed to choose their own paths alone?

Post by Vita »

Sushan wrote: May 22nd, 2022, 10:22 pm
Vita wrote: May 21st, 2022, 9:09 am
Sushan wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:25 am This topic is about the May 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White


All children intuitively know they are overflowing with talent and oozing with potential, and they fully intend to express it. However, things happened, and they forget all about it
. (Location 126 - Kindle version)

Children are born with various talents and abilities. Almost all parents are proud of their kids when they are young. But when time goes on and those children become adults that potential which was seen when they were young becomes less. And also the parents become worrying about the future of their children, and try to guide them along various paths. And the conflicts begin!!

What might be the reason for this drastic change? Why children loose the potential that they show initially? Is it because the parents try to guide them? Or is it because of some other reason? Should children be allowed to choose their own path alone? Or should parents intervene into their choices?
No; people generally don’t have enough empathy to know what their child should have when they are young. For instance, some parents want their children to become engineers or scientists but cannot see with their selfish perception that the child loves music. They should still guide them away from immoral jobs. But what a parent can do is teach a child what they need for various careers and lives, like hard work and kindness. They can also give children a wide range of opportunities, like piano lessons as well as STEM camps.
It is ideal for a parent to teach their kids various talents, abilities, expose them to various opportunities, and let the kid to choose what he/she will become in the future. But in the practical scenario, we are in a race, and the time is limited. There is no enough time to go along many paths and choose the best for you. Lucky ones may get to see several paths, but many do not have that chance. So ultimately it is a leap of faith, and most often the faith is needed to be placed on parental guidance. Some parents are selfish, yes I agree, but many want the best for their children and we see that as selfishness.
Can you give an example of a parent unselfishly choosing their child’s path?
I understand that many kids do not get any opportunities, but parents can at least expose their kids to ideas (listening to music, building blocks, etc.). And even if parents cannot give their kids opportunities like this, there is no reason to prod a child so far along a path they hate that they cannot leave. If a parent must choose a path for their kid, they could at least make an informed decision rather than a leap of faith.
any ideas?
Post Reply

Return to “The Maestro Monologue: Discover your Genius, Defeat your intruder, Design your destiny by Rob White”

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021