Solely depending on God's providence, will it make us contented or lazy?

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EricPH
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Re: Solely depending on God's providence, will it make us contented or lazy?

Post by EricPH »

Sushan wrote: June 8th, 2022, 9:59 pm People use different ways and means to gain courage, and religion and religious faith is one way among them.
I would not describe what we do as courageous, we put our trust in God and go in our weakness.
You have done a marvellous job to reduce gang and gun violence. But don't you feel like it was you (and your team) did that thing for the humanity rather than some untouchable, faraway living super power?
I know I would not have been able to do this before I found a faith and trust in God in my late forties. We work as if everything depends on our efforts, and we pray as if everything depends on God. We constantly have to give thanks for all the good things that keep happening. Faith in God is profound and beyond my understanding, we genuinely go out in our weakness, our strength comes from God.
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Sushan
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Re: Solely depending on God's providence, will it make us contented or lazy?

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stevie wrote: June 9th, 2022, 5:54 am
Sushan wrote: June 8th, 2022, 10:05 pm
stevie wrote: June 7th, 2022, 2:54 am
Sushan wrote: June 4th, 2022, 9:13 pm ... Well, I have to agree that if you remain without trying new and risky things you cannot fail and then you will be happy. But that will cause you to remain where you are. So, depending on providence from above, is it a way to be contented or is it a way to cover your laziness?
You seem to imply that it is better to unhappily not remain where you are than to remain happily where you are. Are you serious?
I do not imply that, but it has been done throughout the history by various preachers and in addition some of the ancestral fathers of America. I think positive or negative outcomes are gained as results of various decisions and processes rather than that being decisions or wishes of a superior being, and believing on the latter will make one a lazy fellow, which is not quite good or productive.
So you are expressing yourself from an US American cultural conceptual framing, I see and this framing is alien to me.
Well, I do not have such a cultural framing, and I am not from US as well. I am speaking about what has been done throughout the history, and what I see from an objective view point. So far I have not seen or felt any interventions of a superior being, other than some people being quite lucky in some situations. But the percentage of being lucky is quite low, which should have been much more higher if some outside influence was there.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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Re: Solely depending on God's providence, will it make us contented or lazy?

Post by Sushan »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 9th, 2022, 10:56 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 6th, 2022, 9:46 am "Solely depending on God's providence, will it make us contented or lazy?"

The Gods help those who help themselves. I.e. if we just sit there, and expect God(s) to step in and make our lives better, we're going to be disappointed.
Sushan wrote: June 8th, 2022, 10:02 pm I agree. Then what about when we are unfairly wronged? Should we fight for ourselves, or should we accept that as God's wish and carry on with our life without fighting for our rights? Can depending on God's providence and concept of 'God's wish' in such circumstances prevent us from getting any harm, but to loose something that we value in expense?
As we commonly do in your topics, we are now considering messy, real-world, issues in the light of some theoretical idea or ideology. And we find, as we nearly always do, that the real world is not as clear-cut as we might prefer. 😉

In the example you offer, we could observe that the acceptance that comes from the 'knowledge' that God will take care of everything is probably beneficial. On the other hand, it is not ideal to rely on some other being (or Being) to sort out our problems, and maybe this is not acceptance but appeasement or, more plainly, cowardice? The order of the day seems to be the realisation that there is no One Rule that, if we follow it, will make everything come out 'right'.
There are occasions that we have to rely upon others or human made systems rather than depending on our own selves, or doing everything on our own. Not hitting back the one who hits you to punish him by law can be taken as such an example, and in which you will definitely be seen as a coward by the spectators. But there you simply have a plan, which can be commenced with a high chance of success. But if you remain doing nothing letting the God to do the punishing part, most likely you will end up in frustration.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Solely depending on God's providence, will it make us contented or lazy?

Post by Sushan »

Gee wrote: June 10th, 2022, 12:04 am
Sushan wrote: June 8th, 2022, 10:07 pm
Gee wrote: June 7th, 2022, 5:09 pm Not long after West Side Story came out decades ago, I read an article about Rita Moreno, who starred in that movie. The interviewer asked Ms. Moreno what she did to become so successful at such an early age. She responded, "I work like everything depends on me, and I pray like everything depends on God".

I was impressed then and never forgot it.

Gee
So what has actually lead her to her success? Was it her hard working, or her hard praying? I think it is the former. The latter may have provided some moral support, but her hard working is what should really be praised rather than the God.
Why does it have to be either/or -- hard work or hard praying? Have you never heard of "work smarter not harder"? A bank robber might work very hard to rob banks and even be quite successful at doing so, but does that make him a success?

You seem to be expressing a very simplistic or it could even be called a juvenile or immature understanding of "God" ideas.

If anything needs to be praised, it would be her success.

Gee
Yes, her success should be praised. But along with that the hardships that she went through, the sleepless nights that she spent, the meals that shr had to skip, should be taken into consideration as well. And they will increase the value of her achievement. Putting the God into this equation will simply make her endeavors less valued, which is really unfair. Why we always try to praise some unseen Being for the success of the humans?

For the notice, there have been famous and successful robbers who lived happily throughout their lives. But seemingly the God had done nothing to either punish them or to comfort those that they robbed from.
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Re: Solely depending on God's providence, will it make us contented or lazy?

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EricPH wrote: June 10th, 2022, 8:18 pm
Sushan wrote: June 8th, 2022, 9:59 pm People use different ways and means to gain courage, and religion and religious faith is one way among them.
I would not describe what we do as courageous, we put our trust in God and go in our weakness.
You have done a marvellous job to reduce gang and gun violence. But don't you feel like it was you (and your team) did that thing for the humanity rather than some untouchable, faraway living super power?
I know I would not have been able to do this before I found a faith and trust in God in my late forties. We work as if everything depends on our efforts, and we pray as if everything depends on God. We constantly have to give thanks for all the good things that keep happening. Faith in God is profound and beyond my understanding, we genuinely go out in our weakness, our strength comes from God.
I simply cannot digest this concept. With all due respect, I think you have always been strong, and there should be a strong will and a courageous mind to put yourself in dangerous situations, especially when it is for the betterment of the society. What you did was a selfless act. You may have gained that strength with the belief in God, but for me it was you who did the service, and you have been pretty much strong whether you believe it or not.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
EricPH
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Re: Solely depending on God's providence, will it make us contented or lazy?

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Sushan wrote: June 21st, 2022, 10:18 pm
EricPH wrote: June 10th, 2022, 8:18 pm
Sushan wrote: June 8th, 2022, 9:59 pm People use different ways and means to gain courage, and religion and religious faith is one way among them.
I would not describe what we do as courageous, we put our trust in God and go in our weakness.
You have done a marvellous job to reduce gang and gun violence. But don't you feel like it was you (and your team) did that thing for the humanity rather than some untouchable, faraway living super power?
I know I would not have been able to do this before I found a faith and trust in God in my late forties. We work as if everything depends on our efforts, and we pray as if everything depends on God. We constantly have to give thanks for all the good things that keep happening. Faith in God is profound and beyond my understanding, we genuinely go out in our weakness, our strength comes from God.
I simply cannot digest this concept. With all due respect,
I also find this concept hard to digest, the default position should be worry and fear. I know I should not have any feelings of peace in these violent situations. The total peace I experience is profound and beyond my understanding.
I think you have always been strong, and there should be a strong will and a courageous mind to put yourself in dangerous situations, especially when it is for the betterment of the society.
At the age of 73, my physical strength has been going downhill for some years. I understand my weakness more than I understand any strength. I am not sure how you confront violent and unpredictable behaviour by depending on any mental strength. St Paul describes this strength, he said when I am weak, then I am strong. Meaning we do not depend on our own efforts, we let go of worries and fears and depend on God. I know this does not make me bullet proof, I could get hurt or killed. God willing, I still hope to be doing this until I am at least eighty. We give thanks to God for all the good things that happen.

When I think back over the last fourteen years of going out with the Street Pastors, it would have been so easy to have stayed at home and done nothing. Worry or fear could have prevented me doing anything, very few things in life are risk free.
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Re: Solely depending on God's providence, will it make us contented or lazy?

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EricPH wrote: June 22nd, 2022, 8:53 am
Sushan wrote: June 21st, 2022, 10:18 pm
EricPH wrote: June 10th, 2022, 8:18 pm
Sushan wrote: June 8th, 2022, 9:59 pm People use different ways and means to gain courage, and religion and religious faith is one way among them.
I would not describe what we do as courageous, we put our trust in God and go in our weakness.
You have done a marvellous job to reduce gang and gun violence. But don't you feel like it was you (and your team) did that thing for the humanity rather than some untouchable, faraway living super power?
I know I would not have been able to do this before I found a faith and trust in God in my late forties. We work as if everything depends on our efforts, and we pray as if everything depends on God. We constantly have to give thanks for all the good things that keep happening. Faith in God is profound and beyond my understanding, we genuinely go out in our weakness, our strength comes from God.
I simply cannot digest this concept. With all due respect,
I also find this concept hard to digest, the default position should be worry and fear. I know I should not have any feelings of peace in these violent situations. The total peace I experience is profound and beyond my understanding.
I think you have always been strong, and there should be a strong will and a courageous mind to put yourself in dangerous situations, especially when it is for the betterment of the society.
At the age of 73, my physical strength has been going downhill for some years. I understand my weakness more than I understand any strength. I am not sure how you confront violent and unpredictable behaviour by depending on any mental strength. St Paul describes this strength, he said when I am weak, then I am strong. Meaning we do not depend on our own efforts, we let go of worries and fears and depend on God. I know this does not make me bullet proof, I could get hurt or killed. God willing, I still hope to be doing this until I am at least eighty. We give thanks to God for all the good things that happen.

When I think back over the last fourteen years of going out with the Street Pastors, it would have been so easy to have stayed at home and done nothing. Worry or fear could have prevented me doing anything, very few things in life are risk free.
The part that I highlighted makes this discussion even more confusing. You said you weak but got strength from God. Yet, you know that you can even be killed, and you are ready to accept that because (according to you) it is the will of the God. If we can keep the God completely out of this dilemma, I see it as a loss of interest in life and so having the strength to be in any dangerous situation, as seen in (I am not implying any insult by saying this, just trying to give an example for my view) many depressed ones or the stoned ones who have no sensation about risks, getting injured or killed. The mentality is found useful in military organizations, but when it comes to a civilized lliving it won't be good for either you or your loved ones.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
EricPH
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Re: Solely depending on God's providence, will it make us contented or lazy?

Post by EricPH »

When we are out in our town until 4 am, we can be identified by our jackets which say Street Pastors. People often ask, who are you, and what do you do?

My reply is, we are volunteers. and we want our town to be a kinder and more caring place for our children and grandchildren. I have to do something and be part of the change I want to see. Faith and trust in God help me to do the things we do.

I love life, and want to live a few more years in a kinder and more caring town. I believe taking the risk to do something for fourteen years has made a difference.

I still find it hard to believe that none of us have been hurt whilst on duty. Most people we encounter know we are volunteers, that seems to earn a huge respect. It almost feels like we are allowed to walk in the middle of a fight, we don't appear to be a target for their rage.

Angry drunken fights are dangerous, we see people get hurt. We face a dilemma every time there is a conflict, our training, policies and risk assessments say we should not get involved.
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Re: Solely depending on God's providence, will it make us contented or lazy?

Post by Sushan »

EricPH wrote: June 23rd, 2022, 1:09 am When we are out in our town until 4 am, we can be identified by our jackets which say Street Pastors. People often ask, who are you, and what do you do?

My reply is, we are volunteers. and we want our town to be a kinder and more caring place for our children and grandchildren. I have to do something and be part of the change I want to see. Faith and trust in God help me to do the things we do.

I love life, and want to live a few more years in a kinder and more caring town. I believe taking the risk to do something for fourteen years has made a difference.

I still find it hard to believe that none of us have been hurt whilst on duty. Most people we encounter know we are volunteers, that seems to earn a huge respect. It almost feels like we are allowed to walk in the middle of a fight, we don't appear to be a target for their rage.

Angry drunken fights are dangerous, we see people get hurt. We face a dilemma every time there is a conflict, our training, policies and risk assessments say we should not get involved.
Being a total outsider in a violent situation is good for your health. It is not certain that you may not get harmed even if you stay out of trouble, but seemingly you have been lucky enough to remain unharmed. It is good that you are happy and content about what you did. It is what matters at the end, no matter how or why you did that. I believe that you have served your society very well, and I hope you got the well deserved recognition for what you did.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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