No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Use this forum to discuss the July 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Truth Is Beyond Belief!: Some thoughts to make you think about the power of your thoughts…by Jerry Durr
Post Reply
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Joshua10 wrote: August 9th, 2022, 3:50 am Descartes clearly got it wrong so why is he so celebrated in philosophy I wonder? he couldn’t have got it more wrong.
There are shortcomings with Descartes' cogito, but it still fulfils the purpose that Descartes intended. Although it is not clear who/what the "I" refers to, there are thoughts, there is awareness of those thoughts, and so on. If we follow all the routes through that maze, we still conclude that something exists, which is what Descartes intended, I think.

It is easy to crow about how Descartes 'got it wrong', but his 'cogito' broke new ground in serious thought, and its shortcomings don't detract from that. Like many others, I don't subscribe to Cartesian dualism, but we should not forget the incredible insights that Descartes put into words for the first time; valuable insights, despite their problems.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Sy Borg »

Pattern-chaser wrote: August 9th, 2022, 6:45 am
Joshua10 wrote: August 8th, 2022, 4:22 am I adopt “I am, therefore I think” philosophy
Sy Borg wrote: August 8th, 2022, 5:08 pm Joshua, I agree. I am, therefore I think.
Descartes opined that 'the fact that I think demonstrates and confirms my existence'. You offer the converse, that thinking is a direct consequence of (human) existence. Two sides of the same coin, I think. 🤔
Perhaps "I am, therefore I have the potential to think" would be better, but it's not catchy :)
Joshua10
Posts: 1135
Joined: March 20th, 2021, 4:07 am

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Joshua10 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: August 9th, 2022, 6:45 am
Joshua10 wrote: August 8th, 2022, 4:22 am I adopt “I am, therefore I think” philosophy
Sy Borg wrote: August 8th, 2022, 5:08 pm Joshua, I agree. I am, therefore I think.
Descartes opined that 'the fact that I think demonstrates and confirms my existence'. You offer the converse, that thinking is a direct consequence of (human) existence. Two sides of the same coin, I think. 🤔
I commenting that the “I am” has awareness or doesn’t have awareness.Awareness/Unawareness is separate from consciousness and thoughts.
Joshua10
Posts: 1135
Joined: March 20th, 2021, 4:07 am

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Joshua10 »

Joshua10 wrote: August 9th, 2022, 10:57 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: August 9th, 2022, 6:45 am
Joshua10 wrote: August 8th, 2022, 4:22 am I adopt “I am, therefore I think” philosophy
Sy Borg wrote: August 8th, 2022, 5:08 pm Joshua, I agree. I am, therefore I think.
Descartes opined that 'the fact that I think demonstrates and confirms my existence'. You offer the converse, that thinking is a direct consequence of (human) existence. Two sides of the same coin, I think. 🤔
I commenting that the “I am” has awareness or doesn’t have awareness.Awareness/Unawareness are separate from the 2 consciousness and 2 thought types.
Joshua10
Posts: 1135
Joined: March 20th, 2021, 4:07 am

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Joshua10 »

Joshua10 wrote: August 9th, 2022, 10:59 am
Joshua10 wrote: August 9th, 2022, 10:57 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: August 9th, 2022, 6:45 am
Joshua10 wrote: August 8th, 2022, 4:22 am I adopt “I am, therefore I think” philosophy
Sy Borg wrote: August 8th, 2022, 5:08 pm Joshua, I agree. I am, therefore I think.
Descartes opined that 'the fact that I think demonstrates and confirms my existence'. You offer the converse, that thinking is a direct consequence of (human) existence. Two sides of the same coin, I think. 🤔
I commenting that the “I am” has awareness or doesn’t have awareness.Awareness/Unawareness are separate from the 2 consciousness types and 2 thought types.
Joshua10
Posts: 1135
Joined: March 20th, 2021, 4:07 am

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Joshua10 »

If the “I am” doesn’t have awareness then the “I am” is trapped a “prisoner of consciousness” i.e. toggling, in unawareness between the 2 consciousness states that it believes that it is.The “I am” therefore, has no CONTROL whatsoever over the consciousness states but rather is controlled by them and to a certain extent the thoughts that reside within them.

Descartes was completely wrong with his statement therefore.He had no understanding whatsoever of the”I am” ; thought types or consciousness types or awareness/unawareness and how they relate to the “l am”.

The “I am” can take control of the consciousness states and the 2 thought types which reside within the 2 consciousness states if it has sufficient awareness and understanding of how they are all interconnected.
Joshua10
Posts: 1135
Joined: March 20th, 2021, 4:07 am

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Joshua10 »

The “I am” needs to see itself as separate from awareness/consciousness/thoughts/emotions.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Sy Borg »

Joshua10 wrote: August 11th, 2022, 6:22 am The “I am” needs to see itself as separate from awareness/consciousness/thoughts/emotions.
That is the "I am" of a microbe, plant or other non-brained organisms. Their existence, as with all life, is inherently a separation from everything else. An organism's very being defies the environment that would otherwise claim it, and without any the mental functions listed.

I am = I am here now, whether I realise it or not :)
Joshua10
Posts: 1135
Joined: March 20th, 2021, 4:07 am

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Joshua10 »

Sy Borg wrote: August 11th, 2022, 6:56 am
Joshua10 wrote: August 11th, 2022, 6:22 am The “I am” needs to see itself as separate from awareness/consciousness/thoughts/emotions.
That is the "I am" of a microbe, plant or other non-brained organisms. Their existence, as with all life, is inherently a separation from everything else. An organism's very being defies the environment that would otherwise claim it, and without any the mental functions listed.

I am = I am here now, whether I realise it or not :)
Umm an interesting point of view Sy Borg,I would suggest that the “I am” has far more complexities to it than just a mere microbe.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Joshua10 wrote: August 9th, 2022, 10:57 am Awareness/Unawareness is separate from consciousness and thoughts.
I imagine that this will simply end up as a discussion of what "aware" means, but I'm interested anyway. So, what is the difference between consciousness and awareness? These two words are often used as synonyms, in some discussions.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Joshua10 wrote: August 10th, 2022, 3:36 am ...toggling ... between the 2 consciousness states..
What are these two consciousness states, please?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Joshua10 wrote: August 11th, 2022, 8:02 am Umm an interesting point of view Sy Borg, I would suggest that the “I am” has far more complexities to it than just a mere microbe.
Being cautious, I would like to ask if "I am" is used here to refer to "the Self"? It looks like it is, but it is easy to misunderstand...
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Joshua10
Posts: 1135
Joined: March 20th, 2021, 4:07 am

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Joshua10 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: August 11th, 2022, 8:09 am
Joshua10 wrote: August 9th, 2022, 10:57 am Awareness/Unawareness is separate from consciousness and thoughts.
I imagine that this will simply end up as a discussion of what "aware" means, but I'm interested anyway. So, what is the difference between consciousness and awareness? These two words are often used as synonyms, in some discussions.
Yes It is also my understanding that present thinking is that awareness and consciousness are the same thing.

Trying to define them is like trying to define the difference between the colour red in relation to the colour green.Just because you cannot define red or green doesn’t mean that the conclusion has to be that there is no difference. Experience suggests that there is a difference.

I suggest therefore that the “I am” is either aware or unaware of consciousness.So how can the “I am” be aware or unaware of consciousness?

My view is that there are 2 distinct types of consciousness that the “I am” experiences whilst in the “Awake” state.As I have said previously, these are, the “in the moment” and “out of the moment” consciousness states.

It is my view that whether we like it or no or agree with it or not we “toggle between these 2 consciousness states all the time whilst in the “Awake” state.It is also my view that we are either aware or unaware of this.

If the “I am” is aware of this “toggling” effect of consciousness then it can introduce control over it.If the “I am” is not aware of this “toggling” effect of consciousness then it cannot introduce control over it.

The “I am” can introduce control over the consciousness states INDEPENDENTLY of thoughts whether this be inward or outward type thoughts.

As also mentioned previously the “I am” can also become aware having previously been unaware that it ENGAGES with incoming autopilot thoughts whereas it does not ENGAGE with outward manual thoughts.

If the “I am” ENGAGES with incoming autopilot thoughts then the “I am” experiences the “out of the moment” consciousness state.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

You keep making statements that are necessarily true, and meaningless as a result. For example:
the “I am” is either aware or unaware of consciousness
Assuming that "aware" and "unaware" are binary opposites (?), your statement cannot help but be true. Is that what you intended?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Joshua10
Posts: 1135
Joined: March 20th, 2021, 4:07 am

Re: No Mind --> No Thoughts --> No Issues : Do you agree?

Post by Joshua10 »

Can I suggest that if the “I am” is not SELF, then what is it?

It is either the “in the moment” or the “out of the moment” consciousness state or NEITHER.

I would suggest neither,The “I am” experiences both.
Post Reply

Return to “The Truth Is Beyond Belief!: Some thoughts to make you think about the power of your thoughts…by Jerry Durr”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021