More than cure, more than prevention!

Use this forum to discuss the August 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, Living in Color: A Love Story, In Sickness and in Health by Mike Murphy
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Sushan
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More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by Sushan »

This topic is about the August 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, Living in Color: A Love Story, In Sickness and in Health by Mike Murphy


....life is not about avoiding or eliminating the pain and suffering that comes with the human experience; it’s about rising above it.
(Location 96 - Kindle version)

Pain, whether it is physical or mental, is not a pleasant feeling. We do not touch fire because it is painful. People who have suffered from relationship breakups tend to avoid further relationships. These are two examples for prevention.

We take painkillers when we have a headache. We go to a loved one, a calm and quite place, or even counseling when we are hurt mentally. In such ways we cure (or reduce) pain.

The old saying suggests which of the above is better. But this author is suggesting something superior to both, 'rising above pain'. What is your opinion regarding this third option? What is really meant by it?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
stevie
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Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by stevie »

Sushan wrote: August 7th, 2022, 9:51 pm This topic is about the August 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, Living in Color: A Love Story, In Sickness and in Health by Mike Murphy


....life is not about avoiding or eliminating the pain and suffering that comes with the human experience; it’s about rising above it.
(Location 96 - Kindle version)

Pain, whether it is physical or mental, is not a pleasant feeling. We do not touch fire because it is painful. People who have suffered from relationship breakups tend to avoid further relationships. These are two examples for prevention.

We take painkillers when we have a headache. We go to a loved one, a calm and quite place, or even counseling when we are hurt mentally. In such ways we cure (or reduce) pain.

The old saying suggests which of the above is better. But this author is suggesting something superior to both, 'rising above pain'. What is your opinion regarding this third option? What is really meant by it?
It seems that "rising above it" is an inappropriate metaphor, sounds nearly ridiculously heroic. However the author certainly is right that avoiding or eliminating pain and suffering is remote from everday life. Psychotherapy knows that often the mechanisms people make up to avoid a particular suffering often entail other kinds of suffering. So the best advice appears to be "Accept life as it is" which of course does not exclude medical treatment of physical pain or psychiatric illness.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Sushan
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Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by Sushan »

stevie wrote: August 8th, 2022, 12:42 am
Sushan wrote: August 7th, 2022, 9:51 pm This topic is about the August 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, Living in Color: A Love Story, In Sickness and in Health by Mike Murphy


....life is not about avoiding or eliminating the pain and suffering that comes with the human experience; it’s about rising above it.
(Location 96 - Kindle version)

Pain, whether it is physical or mental, is not a pleasant feeling. We do not touch fire because it is painful. People who have suffered from relationship breakups tend to avoid further relationships. These are two examples for prevention.

We take painkillers when we have a headache. We go to a loved one, a calm and quite place, or even counseling when we are hurt mentally. In such ways we cure (or reduce) pain.

The old saying suggests which of the above is better. But this author is suggesting something superior to both, 'rising above pain'. What is your opinion regarding this third option? What is really meant by it?
It seems that "rising above it" is an inappropriate metaphor, sounds nearly ridiculously heroic. However the author certainly is right that avoiding or eliminating pain and suffering is remote from everday life. Psychotherapy knows that often the mechanisms people make up to avoid a particular suffering often entail other kinds of suffering. So the best advice appears to be "Accept life as it is" which of course does not exclude medical treatment of physical pain or psychiatric illness.
We can accept the life as it is. But then there will be no growth since you are satisfied with what you already have. If you want to achieve anything you have to try, and higher goals can be coupled with physical as well as mental pain in its pathway.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
stevie
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Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by stevie »

Sushan wrote: August 12th, 2022, 10:16 pm
stevie wrote: August 8th, 2022, 12:42 am
Sushan wrote: August 7th, 2022, 9:51 pm This topic is about the August 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, Living in Color: A Love Story, In Sickness and in Health by Mike Murphy


....life is not about avoiding or eliminating the pain and suffering that comes with the human experience; it’s about rising above it.
(Location 96 - Kindle version)

Pain, whether it is physical or mental, is not a pleasant feeling. We do not touch fire because it is painful. People who have suffered from relationship breakups tend to avoid further relationships. These are two examples for prevention.

We take painkillers when we have a headache. We go to a loved one, a calm and quite place, or even counseling when we are hurt mentally. In such ways we cure (or reduce) pain.

The old saying suggests which of the above is better. But this author is suggesting something superior to both, 'rising above pain'. What is your opinion regarding this third option? What is really meant by it?
It seems that "rising above it" is an inappropriate metaphor, sounds nearly ridiculously heroic. However the author certainly is right that avoiding or eliminating pain and suffering is remote from everday life. Psychotherapy knows that often the mechanisms people make up to avoid a particular suffering often entail other kinds of suffering. So the best advice appears to be "Accept life as it is" which of course does not exclude medical treatment of physical pain or psychiatric illness.

We can accept the life as it is. But then there will be no growth since you are satisfied with what you already have. If you want to achieve anything you have to try, and higher goals can be coupled with physical as well as mental pain in its pathway.
You are free to hold the view that satisfaction with what is (i.e. contentment) isn't enough. I don't envy you for that view.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by LuckyR »

Life is complex, thus why the choice in the OP is a false one. Negative things should be avoided in optimal conditions, solved as a fallback and overcome as the last resort.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sushan
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Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by Sushan »

stevie wrote: August 13th, 2022, 12:16 am
Sushan wrote: August 12th, 2022, 10:16 pm
stevie wrote: August 8th, 2022, 12:42 am
Sushan wrote: August 7th, 2022, 9:51 pm This topic is about the August 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, Living in Color: A Love Story, In Sickness and in Health by Mike Murphy



(Location 96 - Kindle version)

Pain, whether it is physical or mental, is not a pleasant feeling. We do not touch fire because it is painful. People who have suffered from relationship breakups tend to avoid further relationships. These are two examples for prevention.

We take painkillers when we have a headache. We go to a loved one, a calm and quite place, or even counseling when we are hurt mentally. In such ways we cure (or reduce) pain.

The old saying suggests which of the above is better. But this author is suggesting something superior to both, 'rising above pain'. What is your opinion regarding this third option? What is really meant by it?
It seems that "rising above it" is an inappropriate metaphor, sounds nearly ridiculously heroic. However the author certainly is right that avoiding or eliminating pain and suffering is remote from everday life. Psychotherapy knows that often the mechanisms people make up to avoid a particular suffering often entail other kinds of suffering. So the best advice appears to be "Accept life as it is" which of course does not exclude medical treatment of physical pain or psychiatric illness.

We can accept the life as it is. But then there will be no growth since you are satisfied with what you already have. If you want to achieve anything you have to try, and higher goals can be coupled with physical as well as mental pain in its pathway.
You are free to hold the view that satisfaction with what is (i.e. contentment) isn't enough. I don't envy you for that view.
Well, then may I ask (you are not obliged to answer), are you satisfied with what you already have? Can you simply accept the life as it is?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Sushan
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Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: August 13th, 2022, 3:00 pm Life is complex, thus why the choice in the OP is a false one. Negative things should be avoided in optimal conditions, solved as a fallback and overcome as the last resort.
I agree with you. I too think what the author says is not totally correct. But why is this hierarchy when it comes to deal with negative things? Can't we choose overcoming a negative thing before choosing to fall back?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
stevie
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Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by stevie »

Sushan wrote: August 17th, 2022, 10:01 pm
stevie wrote: August 13th, 2022, 12:16 am
Sushan wrote: August 12th, 2022, 10:16 pm
stevie wrote: August 8th, 2022, 12:42 am

It seems that "rising above it" is an inappropriate metaphor, sounds nearly ridiculously heroic. However the author certainly is right that avoiding or eliminating pain and suffering is remote from everday life. Psychotherapy knows that often the mechanisms people make up to avoid a particular suffering often entail other kinds of suffering. So the best advice appears to be "Accept life as it is" which of course does not exclude medical treatment of physical pain or psychiatric illness.

We can accept the life as it is. But then there will be no growth since you are satisfied with what you already have. If you want to achieve anything you have to try, and higher goals can be coupled with physical as well as mental pain in its pathway.
You are free to hold the view that satisfaction with what is (i.e. contentment) isn't enough. I don't envy you for that view.
Well, then may I ask (you are not obliged to answer), are you satisfied with what you already have? Can you simply accept the life as it is?
Yes and yes.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: August 17th, 2022, 10:03 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 13th, 2022, 3:00 pm Life is complex, thus why the choice in the OP is a false one. Negative things should be avoided in optimal conditions, solved as a fallback and overcome as the last resort.
I agree with you. I too think what the author says is not totally correct. But why is this hierarchy when it comes to deal with negative things? Can't we choose overcoming a negative thing before choosing to fall back?
Overcoming a negative means you suffered from the negative THEN overcame it. I would prefer to avoid it and not suffer from it.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by Sushan »

stevie wrote: August 18th, 2022, 1:00 am
Sushan wrote: August 17th, 2022, 10:01 pm
stevie wrote: August 13th, 2022, 12:16 am
Sushan wrote: August 12th, 2022, 10:16 pm


We can accept the life as it is. But then there will be no growth since you are satisfied with what you already have. If you want to achieve anything you have to try, and higher goals can be coupled with physical as well as mental pain in its pathway.
You are free to hold the view that satisfaction with what is (i.e. contentment) isn't enough. I don't envy you for that view.
Well, then may I ask (you are not obliged to answer), are you satisfied with what you already have? Can you simply accept the life as it is?
Yes and yes.
Thank you very much. But your answer raises more questions in me (sorry for being curious and being too nosy). Don't you have any interests then? Don't you feel happy when you achieve something, or do you get a neutral feeling? (Once again, please keep in mind that you are not obliged to answer as these questions can be personal. Thank you)
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Sushan
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Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: August 18th, 2022, 3:35 am
Sushan wrote: August 17th, 2022, 10:03 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 13th, 2022, 3:00 pm Life is complex, thus why the choice in the OP is a false one. Negative things should be avoided in optimal conditions, solved as a fallback and overcome as the last resort.
I agree with you. I too think what the author says is not totally correct. But why is this hierarchy when it comes to deal with negative things? Can't we choose overcoming a negative thing before choosing to fall back?
Overcoming a negative means you suffered from the negative THEN overcame it. I would prefer to avoid it and not suffer from it.
I see. But what if overcoming comes with eliminating the negative and avoiding comes with the possibility of re-facing the same negative? Won't it be better to face (and feel) it once than doing so more than once?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
stevie
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Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by stevie »

Sushan wrote: August 19th, 2022, 12:29 pm
stevie wrote: August 18th, 2022, 1:00 am
Sushan wrote: August 17th, 2022, 10:01 pm
stevie wrote: August 13th, 2022, 12:16 am

You are free to hold the view that satisfaction with what is (i.e. contentment) isn't enough. I don't envy you for that view.
Well, then may I ask (you are not obliged to answer), are you satisfied with what you already have? Can you simply accept the life as it is?
Yes and yes.
Thank you very much. But your answer raises more questions in me (sorry for being curious and being too nosy). Don't you have any interests then? Don't you feel happy when you achieve something, or do you get a neutral feeling? (Once again, please keep in mind that you are not obliged to answer as these questions can be personal. Thank you)
There are appearances I pay attention to which is my understanding of "having interest in". E.g. I am reading your post and pay attention to the thoughts that appear. Feelings also are appearances, some of which I pay attention to but I am not seeking particular feelings or identify with them.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by Elephant »

Sushan wrote: August 7th, 2022, 9:51 pm

The old saying suggests which of the above is better. But this author is suggesting something superior to both, 'rising above pain'. What is your opinion regarding this third option? What is really meant by it?
To me rising above pain means not allowing pain to be the determining factor of one's decision to live their life. So, say a person was once cheated by his/her significant other. That's very painful. So, the couple ended up separating. The person shouldn't stop trying another relationship again even if it could again result in another painful situation because of the advantages or joy that a new relationship could also bring to his life.
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LuckyR
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Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: August 19th, 2022, 12:29 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 18th, 2022, 3:35 am
Sushan wrote: August 17th, 2022, 10:03 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 13th, 2022, 3:00 pm Life is complex, thus why the choice in the OP is a false one. Negative things should be avoided in optimal conditions, solved as a fallback and overcome as the last resort.
I agree with you. I too think what the author says is not totally correct. But why is this hierarchy when it comes to deal with negative things? Can't we choose overcoming a negative thing before choosing to fall back?
Overcoming a negative means you suffered from the negative THEN overcame it. I would prefer to avoid it and not suffer from it.
I see. But what if overcoming comes with eliminating the negative and avoiding comes with the possibility of re-facing the same negative? Won't it be better to face (and feel) it once than doing so more than once?
I don't disagree that there are chronic problems, such as addiction or depression, that are better faced and dealt with once and for all than using short term solutions to a long term problem. But I stand by my post on typical short term issues (which are the majority of problems).
"As usual... it depends."
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Sushan
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Re: More than cure, more than prevention!

Post by Sushan »

stevie wrote: August 20th, 2022, 1:19 am
Sushan wrote: August 19th, 2022, 12:29 pm
stevie wrote: August 18th, 2022, 1:00 am
Sushan wrote: August 17th, 2022, 10:01 pm

Well, then may I ask (you are not obliged to answer), are you satisfied with what you already have? Can you simply accept the life as it is?
Yes and yes.
Thank you very much. But your answer raises more questions in me (sorry for being curious and being too nosy). Don't you have any interests then? Don't you feel happy when you achieve something, or do you get a neutral feeling? (Once again, please keep in mind that you are not obliged to answer as these questions can be personal. Thank you)
There are appearances I pay attention to which is my understanding of "having interest in". E.g. I am reading your post and pay attention to the thoughts that appear. Feelings also are appearances, some of which I pay attention to but I am not seeking particular feelings or identify with them.
I find it quite confusing with the use of the word 'feelings' in two places. You say feelings are appearances, but then you have said about not seeking for particular feelings. Is 'feelings' something superficial, or something deep?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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