Miranda warning protects culprits and associates rather than protecting the innocent suspects! Do you agree?

Use this forum to discuss the September 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Not So Great American Novel by James E Doucette
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LuckyR
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Re: Miranda warning protects culprits and associates rather than protecting the innocent suspects! Do you agree?

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 3rd, 2022, 8:09 am
Ecurb wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 9:15 pm One more thing: I'm not advocating for incorrect "guilty" verdicts. I'm just pointing out a factor in examining them.
Your words and tone seem to suggest that you are not advocating for incorrect guilty verdicts, but you are trying to justify them. You offer reasons why such verdicts might be 'just' and 'reasonable', but they are neither. Your words support, and excuse, incorrect 'guilty' verdicts, or so it seems to me, as I read your words.
You guys are missing the forest for the trees. 97% of cases are resolved by guilty pleas, either outright, or more typically as a plea bargain. So while this or that prisoner may actually be innocent, they're likely in prison because they plead guilty.

Or to put it another way, if prosecutors charge 300 defendants, 24 have their cases dismissed, 270 plea guilty, 6 go to trial where 5 are found guilty and 1 is found not guilty.
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Re: Miranda warning protects culprits and associates rather than protecting the innocent suspects! Do you agree?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Sushan wrote: September 11th, 2022, 9:55 am This topic is about the September 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Not So Great American Novel by James E Doucette
The Peter Donovan case led to a famous lawsuit, because he was questioned for three days by the police before he was allowed to see an attorney. The robbery happened in 1961 and he was executed in 1963 or 1964. Pete’s case was one of the events that contributed to the Miranda Rights ruling in 1966.
(Page 23 - Kindle version)

The Miranda warning came into the practice of the USA law enforcement system after the case regarding Ernesto Miranda in 1963. In short, it allows the suspect to get legal aid from a lawyer when he faces questioning by the police, and he/she gets the right to remain silent and the interview will be over if he/she decides to remain silent. Please follow the below link from Wikipidea for further details.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_v._Arizona

This practice was included with the intention of protecting the innocent suspects from the questionings by the police which can sometimes be unjust as well as barbaric (a popular secret). It may have its pros like preventing the innocent from being brutally treated, protect them from taking wrong confessions which are made under threats and the wrong party being punished in court cases. But I think this is used more frequently by the professional criminals to just manipulate the police and their interrogations, and they know that police can do nothing more than just questioning. And the lawyer who will present at the time of interrogation will support this not with the best interest of the police, but of his client. By this way I think the criminals are mostly benefited by this rather than the innocent. What do you think?
If the Constitutional right to not have to incriminate oneself is to be meaningful, then the Miranda warning seems necessary.

Usually when new rules are introduced, it is because the old rules were being abused. At some point in the past, people were tortured to confess. The rule that a person cannot be required to incriminate themselves would make torture illegal. But 8 or 9 hours of interrogation and manipulation could be taken as a form of torture, effectively forcing people to confess to crimes they didn't commit.

People confessing to crimes they didn't commit does not serve justice.

Ideally, police would collect sufficient evidence to convict without a confession.
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Re: Miranda warning protects culprits and associates rather than protecting the innocent suspects! Do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: October 12th, 2022, 9:00 pm At some point in the past, people were tortured to confess.
I think coerced confessions are still more common than they ought to be?
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Re: Miranda warning protects culprits and associates rather than protecting the innocent suspects! Do you agree?

Post by InfinityMuse »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 13th, 2022, 10:39 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote: October 12th, 2022, 9:00 pm At some point in the past, people were tortured to confess.
I think coerced confessions are still more common than they ought to be?
Defacto-interogations are a common practice because the art of derivative from reciprocation is still the theater where Abe Lincoln was shot and killed. This is the basis of cross examination can be calculated by derivative rule witch is a philosophy of mathematics of assassination and the checks and balances.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recipro ... 0exponents.

https://www.nps.gov/thingstodo/explore- ... e%20street.

digitalcommons.iwu.edu
https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu › ...PDF
An Economic Analysis of the Death Penalty - Digital Commons @ IWU
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Re: Miranda warning protects culprits and associates rather than protecting the innocent suspects! Do you agree?

Post by Mounce574 »

Gee wrote: September 15th, 2022, 4:30 am
Ecurb wrote: September 13th, 2022, 9:15 am Quite clearly, the Miranda warning protects only the very ignorant or very stupid. Anyone of normal intelligence who owns a TV and has watched cop shows knows about the Miranda warning, and knows that he can request a lawyer and that anything he says can be used against him.
Or the very naïve. Most intelligent people understand that TV shows are fantasy -- not real life. In real life, people who follow the rules and are law abiding citizens do not get rousted by the police. If you are innocent, you are not going to be convicted of a crime, or so we think -- but it happens. Innocent statements can be interpreted in a lot of different ways especially if you do not even know what crime is being investigated -- and they don't tell you.

One of my daughter's friends once complained to me that a cop stopped him and did not read him his rights while searching his car and looking for drugs. He was very angry at being so abused and denied his rights (He was 16). I smiled at him and explained that he didn't have any rights. He argued that he had Miranda rights. I explained that Miranda rights are civil rights, so they only apply after a person has reached the age of majority. Before that you have about the same rights as a dog -- to be fed, educated, housed, provided with medical care when needed, etc.

This is why I did not let my children drive until they were 18 years old, because the police know that 16 and 17 year old kids do not have rights. I did not want them to have to deal with traffic cops without me there.

The 5th and 6th amendment are what make up the the miranda rights. These apply to minor. In the case of 16 year old, if he was arrested - what was the probable cause that made the officer want to search the car? Was he arrested or was he detained? There is a difference. If an officer asks you to step out of the car, do so and say that you do not give permission for the officer to search your vehicle. The use of you fourth amendment rights applies to your home, car, and a facility that may have public use (like a church) that you attend.
If 16 and 17 year olds had no rights, then how do some of them get charged as adults in court? I would use the reference to people like Kyle Rittenhouse (charged as an adult because he was 17)and the Bever Brothers (One was 17 and the other was 16).

The problem many people have is you have the right to remain silent, but do you have the ability to stay silent.
As soon as you ask for an attorney, the police are required to stop asking questions. Anything they ask you after that without the attorney present is not allowed in court. You can spout that you did it, but if you asked for the attorney first, they cannot use that admission.
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Re: Miranda warning protects culprits and associates rather than protecting the innocent suspects! Do you agree?

Post by Gee »

Mounce574 wrote: February 21st, 2023, 9:05 am
The 5th and 6th amendment are what make up the the miranda rights. These apply to minor. In the case of 16 year old, if he was arrested - what was the probable cause that made the officer want to search the car? Was he arrested or was he detained? There is a difference. If an officer asks you to step out of the car, do so and say that you do not give permission for the officer to search your vehicle. The use of you fourth amendment rights applies to your home, car, and a facility that may have public use (like a church) that you attend.
These Amendments that you are talking about are Amendments to the Constitution, and as such apply to people who the Constitution applies to and who have constitutional rights. Minors have Civil rights, so any Constitutional rights that they may possess are derived from and through their parents/guardians.
Mounce574 wrote: February 21st, 2023, 9:05 am
If 16 and 17 year olds had no rights, then how do some of them get charged as adults in court? I would use the reference to people like Kyle Rittenhouse (charged as an adult because he was 17)and the Bever Brothers (One was 17 and the other was 16).
Sometimes a Defense Attorney or Prosecutor will want to charge a 16 or 17 year old as an adult because they see some advantage in presenting it that way in Court. For example: Someone like Rittenhouse might be charged as an adult because the attorneys want to have a jury for the trial. Minors do not have the (Constitutional) right to a jury trial; actually, they have a right to privacy so no exposure to something like a jury, which is a protection for children and a protection for their parents.
Mounce574 wrote: February 21st, 2023, 9:05 am
The problem many people have is you have the right to remain silent, but do you have the ability to stay silent.
As soon as you ask for an attorney, the police are required to stop asking questions. Anything they ask you after that without the attorney present is not allowed in court. You can spout that you did it, but if you asked for the attorney first, they cannot use that admission.
This sounds good, but it is not for all intents and purposes used that way you expect it would be. Did you notice the link that was provided by Sculptor in this thread? It is very informative as it regards talking to the police.

Gee
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