The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Use this forum to discuss the September 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Not So Great American Novel by James E Doucette
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 1143
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by Sushan »

This topic is about the September 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Not So Great American Novel by James E Doucette


I asked Sarah if she understood Dr. Frankenstein’s dilemma: “How do you get the monster back on the table?”
(Page 8 - Kindle version)


In the novel written by Mary Shelley, the monster first tries to be good in his creator's eyes. But when he is dismissed by his creator, he revolts against the creator, Dr. Frankenstein. This revolting against the creator is seen in many contexts, including revolting against the God in religious context, revolting against the father in family context, revolting against 'selfdom' in social context, etc.

We all are creators of something from one hand, while being creations of something else from the other hand. Why do we see this tendency of revolting against the creator more often, without giving the respect and showing the obedience (as necessary) towards the creator?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 6686
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 9:55 am This topic is about the September 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Not So Great American Novel by James E Doucette


I asked Sarah if she understood Dr. Frankenstein’s dilemma: “How do you get the monster back on the table?”
(Page 8 - Kindle version)


In the novel written by Mary Shelley, the monster first tries to be good in his creator's eyes. But when he is dismissed by his creator, he revolts against the creator, Dr. Frankenstein. This revolting against the creator is seen in many contexts, including revolting against the God in religious context, revolting against the father in family context, revolting against 'selfdom' in social context, etc.

We all are creators of something from one hand, while being creations of something else from the other hand. Why do we see this tendency of revolting against the creator more often, without giving the respect and showing the obedience (as necessary) towards the creator?
You didn't mention the most common revolt, namely that of teenagers against their parents. Especially since that is the most obvious analogy between the monster and the doctor.
"As usual... it depends."
stevie
Posts: 705
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by stevie »

Sushan wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 9:55 am We all are creators of something from one hand, while being creations of something else from the other hand. Why do we see this tendency of revolting against the creator more often, without giving the respect and showing the obedience (as necessary) towards the creator?
Due to the impulsiveness of uneducated self. So it's a matter of age, too.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 1143
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 12:27 pm
Sushan wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 9:55 am This topic is about the September 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Not So Great American Novel by James E Doucette


I asked Sarah if she understood Dr. Frankenstein’s dilemma: “How do you get the monster back on the table?”
(Page 8 - Kindle version)


In the novel written by Mary Shelley, the monster first tries to be good in his creator's eyes. But when he is dismissed by his creator, he revolts against the creator, Dr. Frankenstein. This revolting against the creator is seen in many contexts, including revolting against the God in religious context, revolting against the father in family context, revolting against 'selfdom' in social context, etc.

We all are creators of something from one hand, while being creations of something else from the other hand. Why do we see this tendency of revolting against the creator more often, without giving the respect and showing the obedience (as necessary) towards the creator?
You didn't mention the most common revolt, namely that of teenagers against their parents. Especially since that is the most obvious analogy between the monster and the doctor.
I think revolting of teenagers against parents comes in a different context. It occurs due to the clash of the interests of the two parties. The part in which the creation trying to be good in the creator's eyes is not found in this particular scenario. Instead the creation thinks that he/she is correct and knows better than the creator.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 1143
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by Sushan »

stevie wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 2:06 pm
Sushan wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 9:55 am We all are creators of something from one hand, while being creations of something else from the other hand. Why do we see this tendency of revolting against the creator more often, without giving the respect and showing the obedience (as necessary) towards the creator?
Due to the impulsiveness of uneducated self. So it's a matter of age, too.
Quite true. That is why this revolting occurs often in younger ages compared to old age. The education and experience is necessary for the creation to understand its position. But on the other hand, does this mean that the creation cannot be innovative as it is a quality of the creator?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 6686
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: September 4th, 2022, 2:10 am
LuckyR wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 12:27 pm
Sushan wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 9:55 am This topic is about the September 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Not So Great American Novel by James E Doucette


I asked Sarah if she understood Dr. Frankenstein’s dilemma: “How do you get the monster back on the table?”
(Page 8 - Kindle version)


In the novel written by Mary Shelley, the monster first tries to be good in his creator's eyes. But when he is dismissed by his creator, he revolts against the creator, Dr. Frankenstein. This revolting against the creator is seen in many contexts, including revolting against the God in religious context, revolting against the father in family context, revolting against 'selfdom' in social context, etc.

We all are creators of something from one hand, while being creations of something else from the other hand. Why do we see this tendency of revolting against the creator more often, without giving the respect and showing the obedience (as necessary) towards the creator?
You didn't mention the most common revolt, namely that of teenagers against their parents. Especially since that is the most obvious analogy between the monster and the doctor.
I think revolting of teenagers against parents comes in a different context. It occurs due to the clash of the interests of the two parties. The part in which the creation trying to be good in the creator's eyes is not found in this particular scenario. Instead the creation thinks that he/she is correct and knows better than the creator.
Uummm... do you have teenagers?
"As usual... it depends."
stevie
Posts: 705
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by stevie »

Sushan wrote: September 4th, 2022, 2:10 am
stevie wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 2:06 pm
Sushan wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 9:55 am We all are creators of something from one hand, while being creations of something else from the other hand. Why do we see this tendency of revolting against the creator more often, without giving the respect and showing the obedience (as necessary) towards the creator?
Due to the impulsiveness of uneducated self. So it's a matter of age, too.
Quite true. That is why this revolting occurs often in younger ages compared to old age. The education and experience is necessary for the creation to understand its position. But on the other hand, does this mean that the creation cannot be innovative as it is a quality of the creator?
Humans are basically conditioned and - depending on conditioning education in the context of basic condition - may have the capacity to some degree to condition themselves which opens the door to own creativity.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 4931
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by Belindi »

Revolt against God is usually caused by the problem of evil. The poor monster began life as a loving trusting being but learned he was an outcast. Frankenstein's monster was an individual at a time when the Romantics such as Mary Shelley were pitted against the establishment.

The idea being that if people were repressed and oppressed they would suffer as individual psyches and eventually society would suffer.
User avatar
robinkyle11
New Trial Member
Posts: 1
Joined: September 7th, 2022, 3:07 pm

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by robinkyle11 »

In the novel written by Mary Shelley, the monster first tries to be good in his creator's eyes. But when he is dismissed by his creator, he revolts against the creator, Dr. Frankenstein.

This revolting against the creator is seen in many contexts, including revolting against the God in religious context, revolting against the father in family context, revolting against 'selfdom' in social context.

We all are creators of something from one hand, while being creations of something else from the other hand.Why do we see this tendency of revolting against the creator more often, without giving the respect and showing the obedience as necessary towards the creator.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 4931
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by Belindi »

robinkyle11 wrote: September 7th, 2022, 3:09 pm In the novel written by Mary Shelley, the monster first tries to be good in his creator's eyes. But when he is dismissed by his creator, he revolts against the creator, Dr. Frankenstein.

This revolting against the creator is seen in many contexts, including revolting against the God in religious context, revolting against the father in family context, revolting against 'selfdom' in social context.

We all are creators of something from one hand, while being creations of something else from the other hand.Why do we see this tendency of revolting against the creator more often, without giving the respect and showing the obedience as necessary towards the creator.
It's because of identifiable historical events especially the large changes brought about by the agricultural and industrial revolutions. These events brought the creator , the established cultures, into disarray as workers became displaced from their traditional communities and in the commercialised communities they replaced the established church or established ethnicity with dissenting models, chaos, or atheism.

During intervening centuries , revolutions and religions have not stopped commercialised greed. Worldwide simultaneous pestilences, fires, and floods will stop the bolting horses market forces and nationalism.
Good_Egg
Posts: 235
Joined: January 27th, 2022, 5:12 am

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by Good_Egg »

Many people don't condone slavery. We see the status of a slave as sub-human - that to exist for the purpose of taking orders from others with no opportunity to pursue one's own ends is to be something less than fully human.

The difference between the slave and the servant is that the servant can walk away. The servant has agency, making an ongoing choice to trade his service for things he wants. It is the permanence of the slave's condition which is agency-denying and thus objectionable.

A creator's demand for obedience from his creation thus becomes tyrannical when it becomes permanent (or lifelong, which amounts to the same thing). The child with a clear vision of their imminent pathway to autonomous adulthood does not justly rebel.

But monsterhood is permanent...
"For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God" - James 1:20
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 1143
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: September 4th, 2022, 4:35 am
Sushan wrote: September 4th, 2022, 2:10 am
LuckyR wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 12:27 pm
Sushan wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 9:55 am This topic is about the September 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Not So Great American Novel by James E Doucette



(Page 8 - Kindle version)


In the novel written by Mary Shelley, the monster first tries to be good in his creator's eyes. But when he is dismissed by his creator, he revolts against the creator, Dr. Frankenstein. This revolting against the creator is seen in many contexts, including revolting against the God in religious context, revolting against the father in family context, revolting against 'selfdom' in social context, etc.

We all are creators of something from one hand, while being creations of something else from the other hand. Why do we see this tendency of revolting against the creator more often, without giving the respect and showing the obedience (as necessary) towards the creator?
You didn't mention the most common revolt, namely that of teenagers against their parents. Especially since that is the most obvious analogy between the monster and the doctor.
I think revolting of teenagers against parents comes in a different context. It occurs due to the clash of the interests of the two parties. The part in which the creation trying to be good in the creator's eyes is not found in this particular scenario. Instead the creation thinks that he/she is correct and knows better than the creator.
Uummm... do you have teenagers?
Not yet. But I have the first hand experience of being a teenager several years back. When I think about how I thought and acted those days facing mixed consequences at the end, I have acted exactly as I explained above.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 1143
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by Sushan »

stevie wrote: September 5th, 2022, 12:07 am
Sushan wrote: September 4th, 2022, 2:10 am
stevie wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 2:06 pm
Sushan wrote: September 2nd, 2022, 9:55 am We all are creators of something from one hand, while being creations of something else from the other hand. Why do we see this tendency of revolting against the creator more often, without giving the respect and showing the obedience (as necessary) towards the creator?
Due to the impulsiveness of uneducated self. So it's a matter of age, too.
Quite true. That is why this revolting occurs often in younger ages compared to old age. The education and experience is necessary for the creation to understand its position. But on the other hand, does this mean that the creation cannot be innovative as it is a quality of the creator?
Humans are basically conditioned and - depending on conditioning education in the context of basic condition - may have the capacity to some degree to condition themselves which opens the door to own creativity.
Then what about the many innovators that we have seen in the history and seeing today as well? Have they and do they possess only a limited (or hindered by conditioning) amount of creativity? Could we have achieved more if there was no conditioning at all?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 1143
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by Sushan »

Belindi wrote: September 5th, 2022, 3:35 am Revolt against God is usually caused by the problem of evil. The poor monster began life as a loving trusting being but learned he was an outcast. Frankenstein's monster was an individual at a time when the Romantics such as Mary Shelley were pitted against the establishment.

The idea being that if people were repressed and oppressed they would suffer as individual psyches and eventually society would suffer.

I can agree with all your ideas from the second sentence onwards. But from where does the 'evil' come into this picture? I see it as an social issue rather than being a moral or a spiritual one.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 1143
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The creator vs the creation: Dr. Frankenstein's Dilemma!

Post by Sushan »

robinkyle11 wrote: September 7th, 2022, 3:09 pm In the novel written by Mary Shelley, the monster first tries to be good in his creator's eyes. But when he is dismissed by his creator, he revolts against the creator, Dr. Frankenstein.

This revolting against the creator is seen in many contexts, including revolting against the God in religious context, revolting against the father in family context, revolting against 'selfdom' in social context.

We all are creators of something from one hand, while being creations of something else from the other hand.Why do we see this tendency of revolting against the creator more often, without giving the respect and showing the obedience as necessary towards the creator.

It seems like you have quoted a part of the description under the discussion topic, and due to some reason have been unable to add your own ideas. We would love to see your own thoughts regarding the matter. Thank you for commenting and your participation is much appreciated.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
Post Reply

Return to “The Not So Great American Novel by James E Doucette”

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021