Humans cannot avoid hierarchy and structure; do you agree?

Use this forum to discuss the October 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches by John N. (Jake) Ferris
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Sy Borg
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Re: Humans cannot avoid hierarchy and structure; do you agree?

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LuckyR wrote: October 17th, 2022, 5:46 am It is an error to assume that it is everyone's preference to climb hierarchies. Thus the competitive are drawn to climb the hierarchy and those who dislike responsibility and/or confrontation are drawn away from climbing the hierarchy. So these various forces naturally create stratification within groups.
Yes, there is a level of social freedom in anonymity.

A pluralist society will necessarily have specialisations, and some people will have aptitudes in especially influential specialist areas. And, of course, some will have extraordinary qualities.

If humanity could have done better, it would have done so. Humans are not very good at accepting their limitations, with some even denying death, let alone the limits of our perceptions. Sometimes, it's an advantage to not notice one's limits and press on with indefatigable optimism. That lack of self awareness can also lead to self loathing (either personally and/or misanthropy) and damaging behaviour to self and others.

I find it interesting that human history has been replete with leaders who could variably be described as brutal, corrupt, sadistic, nepotistic, dishonest, narcissistic and even downright psychotic. Yet these have lead us from grass huts to space stations, or at least progress happened despite the drag factor of poor leadership. Often leaders will take credit for the good work of their underlings, while they themselves have been a self-indulgent liability.

All of this may shake up with the advent of AI. When AI systems can be found to lead corporations better than humans, and this seems likely given the extreme complexity of the modern world, then those being out-competed will want their own "Execubots". If corporations are being lead at a higher level than achieved by just humans, then the question will come regarding national leadership. Populist political leaders can cause much damage with short-term thinking, poorly thought-out policies, "magic bullet solutions" and favouring political success over the wellbeing of the nation.

Interesting times.
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Re: Humans cannot avoid hierarchy and structure; do you agree?

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LuckyR wrote: October 17th, 2022, 5:46 am It is an error to assume that it is everyone's preference to climb heirarchies. Thus the competitive are drawn to climb the heirarchy and those who dislike responsibility and/or confrontation are drawn away from climbing the heirarchy. So these various forces naturally create stratification within groups.
Yes! In employment — I'm now retired — I avoided hierarchies because I was happy doing what I was doing, and didn't wish to move away from that. So it wasn't that I was avoiding responsibility, confrontation or competition, but only that I had already reached my goal. Actually, I still had a goal, and that was to get better at what I was already doing. That journey is never-ending! 😉
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Re: Humans cannot avoid hierarchy and structure; do you agree?

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Sushan wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 5:44 am
Sculptor1 wrote: October 16th, 2022, 5:45 pm Any two people will form hierarchies in capability and expertise. And so they should.
The trick is to realise that expertise in one area might give you authority in that area, it should not give you power over the other person who may well have expertise in another areas.

The most successful hunter/gatherer societies express this dynamic with horizontal structures, and zonal and modal powers. Specialisms are encouraged.
As societies have grown in size the greedy and power hungry have managed to push their power across generations so that hereditary power has been formed. This is a mistake, but avoidable.
Quite true about hereditary powers. It is wrong (can be right when the right person is in the place even though he/she came to that position with heredity) and should be avoided.

People can always consult specialists in various fields. But in today's world it is not either simple or free. So why should we keep these hierarchical structures instead of people just treating others equally and helping each other?
And how would that be possible without a alpha emerging from the pack?

Even if everybody agrees to play along then who's idea was that? Because technically there the boss because everyone is doing what they said

And then when someone plays the game wrong who will put them in their place ? Because that person will be the boss

Or if no one knows what to do then someone has an idea and others like that idea and agree with it, now they are the boss


I just can't see mammals of any kind living in groups of more then 1 and not forming a system consisting of alpha and betas
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Re: Humans cannot avoid hierarchy and structure; do you agree?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 1st, 2022, 1:21 pm
LuckyR wrote: October 17th, 2022, 5:46 am It is an error to assume that it is everyone's preference to climb heirarchies. Thus the competitive are drawn to climb the heirarchy and those who dislike responsibility and/or confrontation are drawn away from climbing the heirarchy. So these various forces naturally create stratification within groups.
Yes! In employment — I'm now retired — I avoided hierarchies because I was happy doing what I was doing, and didn't wish to move away from that. So it wasn't that I was avoiding responsibility, confrontation or competition, but only that I had already reached my goal. Actually, I still had a goal, and that was to get better at what I was already doing. That journey is never-ending! 😉
Exactly. So humans are not hive dwellers, a subset will be drawn to climbing the ladder, others like to DO, but don't like to DECIDE. It's all good. Except that the deciders (no surprise) typically decide that they should be compensated more than the doers.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Humans cannot avoid hierarchy and structure; do you agree?

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LuckyR wrote: November 7th, 2022, 1:22 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 1st, 2022, 1:21 pm
LuckyR wrote: October 17th, 2022, 5:46 am It is an error to assume that it is everyone's preference to climb heirarchies. Thus the competitive are drawn to climb the heirarchy and those who dislike responsibility and/or confrontation are drawn away from climbing the heirarchy. So these various forces naturally create stratification within groups.
Yes! In employment — I'm now retired — I avoided hierarchies because I was happy doing what I was doing, and didn't wish to move away from that. So it wasn't that I was avoiding responsibility, confrontation or competition, but only that I had already reached my goal. Actually, I still had a goal, and that was to get better at what I was already doing. That journey is never-ending! 😉
Exactly. So humans are not hive dwellers, a subset will be drawn to climbing the ladder, others like to DO, but don't like to DECIDE. It's all good. Except that the deciders (no surprise) typically decide that they should be compensated more than the doers.
I did the same. After much trial, and just as much error, I found that I most enjoyed white collar technical roles. As a rule, I found people at the lower and mid rungs to be more honest, trustworthy and interesting than senior managers. One needs to be prepared to play hardball at the upper echelons. If I'd somehow received a Peter Principle promotion to management, I would have soon been chewed up and spat out.

A pluralist society in action. I'm okay with the upper echelons being paid more. Management (at least good management) is hard, the skills needed are relatively uncommon and the roles tend to demand much of a person's time, heart and soul. Of course, the balance has famously gone out of whack, with outrageous inequality that can only lead to instability, but nature tends to restore balance in the end. "Restore balance", of course, is a euphemism for a rapid acceleration in the death rate.

Oh well.
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Re: Humans cannot avoid hierarchy and structure; do you agree?

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Sy Borg wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:36 pm ...I found that I most enjoyed white collar technical roles. As a rule, I found people at the lower and mid rungs to be more honest, trustworthy and interesting than senior managers. One needs to be prepared to play hardball at the upper echelons. ... Management (at least good management) is hard, the skills needed are relatively uncommon and the roles tend to demand much of a person's time, heart and soul.
In theory, you are quite correct. In practice, in the real world, I wonder if you are? In my experience, managers are duplicitous and ignorant, in general. Yes, proper management is a difficult and demanding job, requiring skills that few have. But managers get paid the most, as we all know, so the greediest of us make our way into management even though we have none of the necessary skills. These 'managers', who form the vast majority, substitute the necessary skills with simple bullying. Management by fear is almost universal, sadly.
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Re: Humans cannot avoid hierarchy and structure; do you agree?

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LuckyR wrote: November 7th, 2022, 1:22 pm So humans are not hive dwellers, a subset will be drawn to climbing the ladder, others like to DO, but don't like to DECIDE. It's all good. Except that the deciders (no surprise) typically decide that they should be compensated more than the doers.
I liked to DO and to DECIDE, but not to manage or supervise other humans. The former is because I loved my vocation — software design and architecture — and the latter because I am an appalling people-person, and placing me in charge of others is unfair to all, including me. Once I had become senior enough, I arranged to be given full technical responsibility for our software and its design, implementation, and testing. I did this alongside a Team Leader, who managed the Team (including me) excellently, so that I could concentrate on what *I* did best. 👍😍
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Re: Humans cannot avoid hierarchy and structure; do you agree?

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How we can communicate and understand each other even if we are not living a life that knows anything other than what is it, well, it's a nature process that lets us do this, so if nature is evolving, then humans could evolve to some states of better understanding and a different approach to life.

Its selectivity means that if humans decided slower, they would comprehend more, but by nature, faster deciding is dangerous to the slow decider. So something of a defense mechanism doesn't let us decide slowly and have a more complete insight.
The answer to a problem usually lies in the solution. The world is bigger than us. Life always finds a path.
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Re: Humans cannot avoid hierarchy and structure; do you agree?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 8th, 2022, 10:16 am
Sy Borg wrote: November 7th, 2022, 6:36 pm ...I found that I most enjoyed white collar technical roles. As a rule, I found people at the lower and mid rungs to be more honest, trustworthy and interesting than senior managers. One needs to be prepared to play hardball at the upper echelons. ... Management (at least good management) is hard, the skills needed are relatively uncommon and the roles tend to demand much of a person's time, heart and soul.
In theory, you are quite correct. In practice, in the real world, I wonder if you are? In my experience, managers are duplicitous and ignorant, in general. Yes, proper management is a difficult and demanding job, requiring skills that few have. But managers get paid the most, as we all know, so the greediest of us make our way into management even though we have none of the necessary skills. These 'managers', who form the vast majority, substitute the necessary skills with simple bullying. Management by fear is almost universal, sadly.
Like anything, there's a range. Some managers are brilliant and steely-nerved and some are shysters or victims of the Peter Principle. Whatever, hierarchies inevitably form. Any attempt at a level playing field will inevitably degrade and skew.

The hard part is keeping power in check, preventing it from dominating unsustainably. An as-yet unsolved problem.
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Re: Humans cannot avoid hierarchy and structure; do you agree?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 8th, 2022, 10:21 am
LuckyR wrote: November 7th, 2022, 1:22 pm So humans are not hive dwellers, a subset will be drawn to climbing the ladder, others like to DO, but don't like to DECIDE. It's all good. Except that the deciders (no surprise) typically decide that they should be compensated more than the doers.
I liked to DO and to DECIDE, but not to manage or supervise other humans. The former is because I loved my vocation — software design and architecture — and the latter because I am an appalling people-person, and placing me in charge of others is unfair to all, including me. Once I had become senior enough, I arranged to be given full technical responsibility for our software and its design, implementation, and testing. I did this alongside a Team Leader, who managed the Team (including me) excellently, so that I could concentrate on what *I* did best. 👍😍
Win/win. Congrats... But the Team Leader made more than you, right?
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Re: Humans cannot avoid hierarchy and structure; do you agree?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

LuckyR wrote: November 7th, 2022, 1:22 pm So humans are not hive dwellers, a subset will be drawn to climbing the ladder, others like to DO, but don't like to DECIDE. It's all good. Except that the deciders (no surprise) typically decide that they should be compensated more than the doers.
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 8th, 2022, 10:21 am I liked to DO and to DECIDE, but not to manage or supervise other humans. The former is because I loved my vocation — software design and architecture — and the latter because I am an appalling people-person, and placing me in charge of others is unfair to all, including me. Once I had become senior enough, I arranged to be given full technical responsibility for our software and its design, implementation, and testing. I did this alongside a Team Leader, who managed the Team (including me) excellently, so that I could concentrate on what *I* did best. 👍😍
LuckyR wrote: November 9th, 2022, 3:35 am Win/win. Congrats... But the Team Leader made more than you, right?
🙂 In our case, the TL made much the same as me, but in general, I think your assumption is correct. 😐
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