Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Discuss the November 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes.

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Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

Jenni Schmitt wrote: January 26th, 2023, 12:25 pm It depends on what the advice is about. A mechanic doesn't have to be happy to give me car advice.
I personally wouldn't risk it.

There's plenty of happy people, including qualified mechanics, from whom to take advice that is thus at least slightly less risky. So I would instead choose to take advice from a mechanic who is happy (i.e. who to the best my ability to tell has consistent inner peace). That way, I would have less risk of adopting whatever habits or such the unhappy mechanic has that caused him to lack inner peace.

I've heard many people wisely say, "misery loves company". Sometimes it can be contagious like COVID. :shock:


Thank you for your sharing thoughts! :D
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

meadowsem wrote: January 26th, 2023, 12:27 pm I would absolutely take advice from an older woman whose children had grown up on raising children - because she has been there and done that.
Me too. :)

But I wouldn't take parenting advice from Casey Anthony.


meadowsem wrote: January 26th, 2023, 12:27 pmSimilarly I would for sure listen to an unhappy person who was happy once, if they could identify what made them happy and share it with me. They have lived it and are potentially wiser than I am.
Not me. There's so very many truly happy people who not only were truly happy at one point but have remained truly happy since then, so all else the same I would take advice from them.

I once read about how the vast majority of people who starred on the TV Show, The Biggest Loser, and lost tons of weight then ended up gaining it all back. Thus, that is a dieting and weight loss program that doesn't interest me. I'm not even familiar with what what their diets and exercise regimes were specifically (e.g. how many calories they per day, how many hours they exercised, etc.). Ever since I read that it didn't work long-term, I lost all interest in it, and wouldn't want to budget some of my very limited time and energy to learn it when I could instead spend that time learning about regimes that actually worked for the people who used them long-term, more than as just a temporary remission. Out of the millions and and millions of different diet and exercise plans, I can only attempt one at a time, and only about a handful over a lifetime at most, if I give up on a lot of them after starting. It's like being in a zombie apocalypse and only having one gun with six rounds total. I'm going to choose my shots very carefully.

For cancer treatment, I'd copy the regime of the person whose treatment worked to eliminate the cancer permanently and who is thus currently cancer free, rather than the dying patient dying from cancer whose treatment plan caused a temporary remission that didn't last with the cancer ultimately returning.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

Julie Gebrosky wrote: January 26th, 2023, 6:17 pm Another point is that the other person may be saying what they wish they did to avoid being unhappy. For instance, a drug addict telling others not to try drugs because they wish they never had done so themselves.
I'm not sure I understand the point of that point.

Let's remember that the question at hand is not whether or not the advice about getting off drugs from an active drug addict is always incorrect.

Likewise, I am not saying the weight loss advice given by obese people is always wrong.

In fact, I am not even coming close to saying that.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I'd rather take advice from someone who is 99% reliable than someone who is 98% reliable.

The fact that the who is 98% reliable could be right sometimes isn't actually a counter-point.

In other words, I agree with what you are saying, It is compatible with what I am saying. It is compatible with the principle of not taking any advice from unhappy people.

There are plenty of happy people who have successfully gotten off drugs to take advice from. It doesn't mean with absolutely certainty that those some people who are on drugs might not also be giving (presumably hypocritical) advice that would actually work. But your holding a gun with only bullet: You only get one shot. Even good isn't good enough.

The fact that the drug addict has not prove their own advice works by putting it into practice makes it less appealing than the advice of the many happy recovered drug addicts out there offering advice that has all the same benefits but without con.

I don't refuse the unrecovered addicts advice because they are certainly wrong about how to recover from addiction. Rather, I refuse their advice because it is at least slightly less reliable than much the alternative advice from which I have to choose: That is, namely, the advice from someone who has all the same qualifications as the unrecovered addict but who also proved their advice works by using it themselves, thereby adding that extra bit of statistical reliability to their advice.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Bertha Jackson
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Bertha Jackson »

Scott wrote: January 26th, 2023, 6:45 pm
meadowsem wrote: January 26th, 2023, 12:27 pm I would absolutely take advice from an older woman whose children had grown up on raising children - because she has been there and done that.
Me too. :)

But I wouldn't take parenting advice from Casey Anthony.


meadowsem wrote: January 26th, 2023, 12:27 pmSimilarly I would for sure listen to an unhappy person who was happy once, if they could identify what made them happy and share it with me. They have lived it and are potentially wiser than I am.
Not me. There's so very many truly happy people who not only were truly happy at one point but have remained truly happy since then, so all else the same I would take advice from them.

I once read about how the vast majority of people who starred on the TV Show, The Biggest Loser, and lost tons of weight then ended up gaining it all back. Thus, that is a dieting and weight loss program that doesn't interest me. I'm not even familiar with what what their diets and exercise regimes were specifically (e.g. how many calories they per day, how many hours they exercised, etc.). Ever since I read that it didn't work long-term, I lost all interest in it, and wouldn't want to budget some of my very limited time and energy to learn it when I could instead spend that time learning about regimes that actually worked for the people who used them long-term, more than as just a temporary remission. Out of the millions and and millions of different diet and exercise plans, I can only attempt one at a time, and only about a handful over a lifetime at most, if I give up on a lot of them after starting. It's like being in a zombie apocalypse and only having one gun with six rounds total. I'm going to choose my shots very carefully.

For cancer treatment, I'd copy the regime of the person whose treatment worked to eliminate the cancer permanently and who is thus currently cancer free, rather than the dying patient dying from cancer whose treatment plan caused a temporary remission that didn't last with the cancer ultimately returning.

I am not sure I agree with the cancer example because I am a cancer survivor. I have no idea why my treatment plan worked better for me than it did for others. Their doctors plan cancer patients' treatment but whether the treatment actually works is another matter. I feel blessed that mine has worked and hope it will not return, but there is nothing I can do to control it. It is in God's hands. My doctors do not think it will return, but time will only tell.
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

Bertha Jackson wrote: January 26th, 2023, 8:38 pm I am not sure I agree with the cancer example because I am a cancer survivor. I have no idea why my treatment plan worked better for me than it did for others. Their doctors plan cancer patients' treatment but whether the treatment actually works is another matter. I feel blessed that mine has worked and hope it will not return, but there is nothing I can do to control it. It is in God's hands. My doctors do not think it will return, but time will only tell.
I don't think we disagree, actually. :)

I'm not saying to always take advice from happy people. In fact, that would be impossible. It's not possible to take advice from a thousand different people, let alone more. And there's plenty more than thousands of happy people out there offering advice.

Likewise, I wouldn't suggest copying each and every person who survived cancer as a way to treat cancer. Again, that would be impossible. Instead, that's just one of the deal-breaking criteria, each being a deal-breaker in and of itself. The absence of one given deal-breaker doesn't mean the deal still goes through.

Generally, you can only take advice from one person at a time or about a particular thing, which is itself the reason to be very stingy about who we will take take advice from. I have a lot of deal-breakers, and this is just one.

There is plenty of people who are rich and happy whose financial advice I still wouldn't take for other reasons.

There's plenty of happy fit healthy non-obese individuals whose weight loss advice I still wouldn't take for other reasons.

It's partly because there is so many options of people offering advice about one thing that I won't look past certain red flags at all ever. Any red flag is a deal breaker. But that doesn't mean the absence of those red flags means I will take the advice either. There's many more than one red-flag-free option, so I exclude all the red-flag ones off the bat.

There's plenty of other criteria too, such as only taking medical advice from someone with a medical degree. I won't take medical from an unhappy doctor (because I don't take any advice from unhappy people) but I also wouldn't take medical advice from a happy non-doctor, among other countless factors and criteria.

In create illustration, if I had cancer, and a doctor was selling a magic pill that allegedly cured cancer that he had invented, and yet he was dying of cancer but was unable to cure himself, I would put my very limited time and money elsewhere rather than listen to him. If he had a bunch of patients who said "oh yeah he's the real deal, buy his magic pill and take it," but they were all dying of cancer and uncured, then that would not be convincing and it would not be advice I would take. In fact, I probably wouldn't even listen to it.

Now that's all just philosophy. It's not really important, but I love philosophy. You'll have to forgive me that that's where my attention and energy will jump to.

On a personal note, I want to say I'm sorry that you had cancer, and I'm very glad to learn your treatment worked, and your doctors say it is gone, and that they think it will not return. I do hope the best for you and your health!


Thank you,
Scott
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Lydia Matson
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Lydia Matson »

Scott wrote: January 26th, 2023, 6:12 pm
Scott wrote: December 14th, 2022, 7:14 pm
I love and respect all people. However, in this human form, time, energy, money, and resources are very limited, so...

I don't take weight loss advice from morbidly obese people.

[...]
That doesn't mean blindly do the opposite of what they advise either. As explained in the book, to blindly do the opposite of what one commands makes you just as much a slave to the commands.
Lydia Matson wrote: January 25th, 2023, 1:37 pm I disagree with this actually. While the overall idea of what you're saying makes sense, it's too generalized. What if a morbidly obese person is that way because of a chronic disease, but actually is a master of nutrition?
If I was making the argument that morbidly obese people never ever give correct or good weight loss advice, then such counter-examples would indeed prove me wrong.

However, that is not at all what I am saying.

Instead, a key point in the OP (Original Post) is how incredibly limited my time, money, and energy is in this human form as a single human. For instance, even if I read a whole book every day, and spent all my waking hours reading books, I still could not read 99.999%+ of all the books out there.

To spending time reading a book or taking someone's advice, it isn't enough for it to possibly be right or reliable. It is not even enough for it to be probably right or reliable. To be worthy of taking their advice their advice has to be the absolute most reliable.

If there was no "masters of nutrition" who also had the credentials of having proven their advice works by following it themselves and putting the proof into the pudding, then what you are saying would present a possible conflict or exception.

In analogy, imagine you were hiring for a very important job opening. There was only one opening, but there was thousands of people who had applied. Even the smallest blemish on a résumé would be enough to put in the 'no' column. Would someone who got fired from the last job for stealing always be a bad hire? No, but when there is plenty of other candidates who are equally qualified by all other measures and the only difference is that one fact, then it becomes a valid filter.

I'm not saying choose who take weight loss based solely on whether or not the person giving it is obese or not (or happy or not). I would use all sorts of criteria too, such as whether the person is a "master of nutrition". But there is way too many masters of nutrition to listen to them all, and generally you can only take the advice of one, at least one a time. If the single job opening I'm looking to hire someone to fill is being my weight loss advisor, being morbidly obese is a blemish on the résumé. And the job is way, way, way too competitive for that blemish to not have me put that résumé in the 'no' column. There are plenty of other candidates who are just as qualified (if not more so) by all other measures but who then also don't have that blemish, making them in total more qualified and reliable.

The question isn't are they reliable; it's are the very most reliable.

If the cost is the same, and the payout upon winning is the same, I'm not going to play a slot machine that gives me win 98% of the time when there's one sitting right next to it that gives me a win 99% of the time. It doesn't take much to not be the best candidate, or the statistically most reliable at something. All it takes is a small blemish on the résumé.


Thank you for sharing your thoughts! :)
Thanks for the response, and I do see what you're saying. I think in a job application there is more of a limit to how many candidates can be accepted, whereas when taking advice there isn't really a limit to how much we can take. I do understand that we as humans are limited in time and resources and probably don't want to take every piece of advice that is offered, but I think we can (and should) take advice from all different types of people. Obviously everyone is different and will want to take advice from someone who fits best with them, so I do see your point.
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

Scott wrote: January 26th, 2023, 6:12 pm In analogy, imagine you were hiring for a very important job opening. There was only one opening, but there was thousands of people who had applied. Even the smallest blemish on a résumé would be enough to put it in the 'no' column. Would someone who got fired from the last job for stealing always be a bad hire? No, but when there is plenty of other candidates who are equally qualified by all other measures and the only difference is that one fact, then it becomes a valid filter.
Lydia Matson wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:49 amwhen taking advice there isn't really a limit to how much we can take.
That point of disagreement is indeed a crucial premise in my logic. Thank you for wisely identifying it. :)

Everything else you've said makes total sense if you believe the above quoted sentence to be true. But I believe that sentence to be false, and then I think everything I've concluded does follow from that.

If I could magically pause time and read every book in the world before continuing my one little human life, I would, including weight loss advice books by morbidly obese people. But even if I lived to 100 and spent every day reading all day, I still would not be able to read even 0.00001% of books out there. In other words, even if I spent all day every reading, I would still have to say 'no' to 99.999% of books out there.

If I could magically pause time and watch every Ted Talk and lecture that has ever been given, I would.

If I could magically pause time and have a thoughtful face-to-face conversation with every single human being on this planet, I would.

Even if I had trillions and trillions of hours, I still would only be able chip away at a tiny fraction of that stuff. And a human life doesn't even come close to that. A human life is so very short.

Even if we explicitly consider only non-fiction books that are specifically and explicitly described as books of advice (e.g. self-help books), I still could not read 99.99% of them.

To compare how competitive it is to get to give me (or you) advice to a single job opening with a thousand candidates is actually an understatement. I cannot even read 1 in 1,000 such books. The ratio gets even worse when we consider non-book forms of advice such as certain lectures or hiring a therapist or life coach or such.

There are about 8 billion people on this world. That is 8,000 million.

Worse yet, keep in mind, of course, that taking the advice requires not only spending the time listening to it in the first place, but then taking the time to actually follow that advice (i.e. put into action).

For example, in the case of choosing whether or not to take the weight loss advice of given by a morbidly obese person, I can only go on one diet and exercise plan at a time, and only a handful in a lifetime (depending on how many I quit, which itself might indicator of how good I am at picking whose advice to take).

I cannot afford to choose to take advice from someone who I would rate as 98% reliable if there someone else who is 99% reliable. I cannot afford to overlook red flags or blemishes on a proverbial résumé because it is so very competitive.

If I think a book is only going to be a 1 out of 1,000 read in terms of quality, meaning I think it is only better than 99.9% of other books, then that is not good enough.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Lydia Matson
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Lydia Matson »

Scott wrote: January 27th, 2023, 2:43 pm
Scott wrote: January 26th, 2023, 6:12 pm In analogy, imagine you were hiring for a very important job opening. There was only one opening, but there was thousands of people who had applied. Even the smallest blemish on a résumé would be enough to put it in the 'no' column. Would someone who got fired from the last job for stealing always be a bad hire? No, but when there is plenty of other candidates who are equally qualified by all other measures and the only difference is that one fact, then it becomes a valid filter.
Lydia Matson wrote: January 27th, 2023, 10:49 amwhen taking advice there isn't really a limit to how much we can take.
That point of disagreement is indeed a crucial premise in my logic. Thank you for wisely identifying it. :)

Everything else you've said makes total sense if you believe the above quoted sentence to be true. But I believe that sentence to be false, and then I think everything I've concluded does follow from that.

If I could magically pause time and read every book in the world before continuing my one little human life, I would, including weight loss advice books by morbidly obese people. But even if I lived to 100 and spent every day reading all day, I still would not be able to read even 0.00001% of books out there. In other words, even if I spent all day every reading, I would still have to say 'no' to 99.999% of books out there.
Maybe a better phrasing would be that there is not a specific limit to how much advice we can take, because what you're saying does make sense. I think what I'm trying to say is the limit differs from person to person. It's up to us individually where we get our advice from, and everyone has a different standard for that or different dealbreakers.

I also would like to add that I sympathize with wishing it would be possible to read every book or watch every TED talk. :)
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Amy Luman »

Why would you? If they can’t help themselves, how can they be expected to help you? Unfortunately, the more unhappy someone is, the more likely they are to try to tell you how to obtain happiness. If it worked so well, why wouldn’t they take their own advice?
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by OTrain M »

I can understand not taking an advice about fitness from an unfit person because it is easy to see because it all out there. But happiness can't be compared with physical fitness because you can't tell if a person is happy or unhappy. Yes, at this particular time, they might be unhappy, and you can judge that by their actions and emotional. But tomorrow those symptoms are not guaranteed. So I think this is a 50-50 thing. Just don't hang around with people who are always unhappy all the time.
Alex Reeves
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Alex Reeves »

I believe you're right Scott. It's better to take practical advice from people who have a legit proof that the advice worked for them, and is certain to work for you too. I absolutely agree with you.
Clara Alston
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Clara Alston »

It is so interesting how something so obvious can be so profound. Of course, you should only take advice from someone who has the skill, knowledge, and emotional strength you seek. So why do we often look for this in undesirable places? I was once given a compliment by a friend who she said would listen to me because she sees how I am living and wanted the same for herself. I often think of this and monitor what I say in order to ensure I am living what I speak.
Bertha Jackson
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Bertha Jackson »

Scott wrote: January 27th, 2023, 12:46 am
Bertha Jackson wrote: January 26th, 2023, 8:38 pm I am not sure I agree with the cancer example because I am a cancer survivor. I have no idea why my treatment plan worked better for me than it did for others. Their doctors plan cancer patients' treatment but whether the treatment actually works is another matter. I feel blessed that mine has worked and hope it will not return, but there is nothing I can do to control it. It is in God's hands. My doctors do not think it will return, but time will only tell.
I don't think we disagree, actually. :)

I'm not saying to always take advice from happy people. In fact, that would be impossible. It's not possible to take advice from a thousand different people, let alone more. And there's plenty more than thousands of happy people out there offering advice.

Likewise, I wouldn't suggest copying each and every person who survived cancer as a way to treat cancer. Again, that would be impossible. Instead, that's just one of the deal-breaking criteria, each being a deal-breaker in and of itself. The absence of one given deal-breaker doesn't mean the deal still goes through.

Generally, you can only take advice from one person at a time or about a particular thing, which is itself the reason to be very stingy about who we will take take advice from. I have a lot of deal-breakers, and this is just one.

There is plenty of people who are rich and happy whose financial advice I still wouldn't take for other reasons.

There's plenty of happy fit healthy non-obese individuals whose weight loss advice I still wouldn't take for other reasons.

It's partly because there is so many options of people offering advice about one thing that I won't look past certain red flags at all ever. Any red flag is a deal breaker. But that doesn't mean the absence of those red flags means I will take the advice either. There's many more than one red-flag-free option, so I exclude all the red-flag ones off the bat.

There's plenty of other criteria too, such as only taking medical advice from someone with a medical degree. I won't take medical from an unhappy doctor (because I don't take any advice from unhappy people) but I also wouldn't take medical advice from a happy non-doctor, among other countless factors and criteria.

In create illustration, if I had cancer, and a doctor was selling a magic pill that allegedly cured cancer that he had invented, and yet he was dying of cancer but was unable to cure himself, I would put my very limited time and money elsewhere rather than listen to him. If he had a bunch of patients who said "oh yeah he's the real deal, buy his magic pill and take it," but they were all dying of cancer and uncured, then that would not be convincing and it would not be advice I would take. In fact, I probably wouldn't even listen to it.

Now that's all just philosophy. It's not really important, but I love philosophy. You'll have to forgive me that that's where my attention and energy will jump to.

On a personal note, I want to say I'm sorry that you had cancer, and I'm very glad to learn your treatment worked, and your doctors say it is gone, and that they think it will not return. I do hope the best for you and your health!


Thank you,
Scott
I totally agree with what you are saying here. "Red flags" are important and have to be taken into consideration in any situation you may find your self in. Thank you for responding to my post.
Shillah Andeso
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Shillah Andeso »

This is a good piece of advice. I, however, think it only applies in some situations. This is because this unhappy person understands the reason why they are unhappy. They may tend to advise you against the wrong choices they made. They understand the consequences and don't want you to fall into the same trap. It is, however, rare to find these people so it's better to stick to the advice you've given.
Theresa Moffitt
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Re: Don't take any advice from unhappy people.

Post by Theresa Moffitt »

I think this is a great point. Before you take someone’s advice about something, especially something significant, consider the source of the advice. Is this someone you can learn from or someone you aspire to be like. You would want the person to have some level of success in the area you are inquiring about. Although we can always learn from a bad example, too. Sometimes you can look at a person or their experience as a cautionary tale and know that you do not want to follow their example. In cases like that we can learn from them what went wrong or where they made their mistakes and what they would do differently if they had the chance.
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by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021