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A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

The Philosophy Forums at OnlinePhilosophyClub.com aim to be an oasis of intelligent in-depth civil debate and discussion. Topics discussed extend far beyond philosophy and philosophers. What makes us a philosophy forum is more about our approach to the discussions than what subject is being debated. Common topics include but are absolutely not limited to neuroscience, psychology, sociology, cosmology, religion, political theory, ethics, and so much more.

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Discuss the November 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes.

To post in this forum, you must buy and read the book. After buying the book, please upload a screenshot of your receipt or proof or purchase via OnlineBookClub. Once the moderators approve your purchase at OnlineBookClub, you will then also automatically be given access to post in this forum.
Forum rules: This forum is for discussing the book In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All. Anyone can view the forum and read the post, but only people who purchased the book can post in the forum.

If your purchase has not already been verified (i.e. if you don't already have access to post in this forum), then please upload a screenshot of your receipt or proof or purchase via OnlineBookClub. Once the moderators approve your purchase at OnlineBookClub, you will then also automatically be given access to post in this forum.
#422954
Topics: #Presence #SelfDiscipline #SpiritualFreedom #FreedomOfSpirit #FreeSpirit #SelfDetermination #SelfResponsibility #Assertiveness #Determination #Acceptance #NonViolence #NonAggression #InnerPeace



If you are thirsty and want to drink water, ask for a cup of water. Or grab a glass, and pour yourself a cup.

Don't sit around thirsty, blaming others for your misery, hating them for not reading your mind, for not somehow luckily giving you what you want without you assertively asking for it.

Unassertive communication comes in many forms but generally all are toxic, unfair, and unhealthy.

Assertiveness is not aggressiveness.

And aggression is generally a symptom of unassertiveness.

Whether it comes out as passive-aggressiveness or flat-out aggression, or even violence, if you sit there long enough thirsty, wrongfully blaming others for your own failure to take assertive self-responsibility, you will almost certainly ultimately lash out in one way or another.

And it's easy to overlook how we enable this unhealthy toxic behavior in others, to be an enabler. You can run around exhausting yourself giving people water they didn't ask for, many of whom probably aren't even thirsty and secretly have other desires regarding which they resent you because you didn't mind-read it out of their heads. Many of those that you would bend over backwards attempting to please will resent you for giving them useless water that they don't want and didn't ask for. By enabling their toxic unassertiveness, you will often also thereby make the same mistake they did. You'll expect gratitude that you won't get. In fact, you'll almost certainly often eventually get the exact opposite of gratitude, because most of us, including myself, are not nearly as good at mind-reading as we typically think. And frankly your enabling will do the exact opposite of helping them. Instead of quenching their thirst with water, you will drown them with your toxic enabling of their toxic unassertiveness. Don't force yourself to say "no" to people asking for something because you are too busy shoving it down throat of someone who didn't ask for it.

If you are truly giving out of unconditional love, it isn't done with the condition or expectation of gratitude, or any future-oriented condition or expectation. It is done because it makes you feel good in the present when it is done. It's done because it's what you want and what you choose to do. Love is not sacrificing your own happiness for someone else; love is being happy to sacrifice. In that beautiful but rare case, you become like the nurturing love-filled little child who gives her toy doll imaginary tea, and rocks the doll to bed at night, with no expectation of rewards for yourself outside the present, no expectation that the doll will give you gratitude now or ever. No expectation that the doll will return the favor. I'm not saying love people in all their complex conscious glory only as much as you love lifeless dolls, but I am saying love people at least as much as you love dolls because sadly many of us don't seem to.

If you don't get the gratitude you are looking for, it would be your fault much more than theirs, insofar as fault or blame have any real meaning, insofar as anyone is to blame or at fault at all for anything.

Indeed, as my upcoming book, "In It Together", will explain much better than a single little forum could (and even a relatively long forum post is short compared to a book that I literally spent years working on), when we fully understand and accept what I am getting at with this post and line of reasoning, there is no real meaning in blame or fault. When it comes to our choices, we each get exactly what we want, meaning what we choose.

The irony of self-responsibility and spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) is that really it is there whether you accept it or not. You are always responsible for yourself. You are always in complete and total control of your choices, even if we use the illusion of 'shoulds' and 'oughts' to distract ourselves from our own present cans and cannots, and our present dos and do nots, meaning our choices in the present.

We can sit around claiming we want to drink the water that is available to drink while not drinking it and resentfully blaming others for not magically reading our minds and shoving it down our throat for us, while saying, "they should be doing such and such instead of what they are actually doing".

Yes, we can sit around claiming we want it, while blabbering silently in our own heads about imaginary 'shoulds' and 'oughts', words that are at best meaningless. "We should be doing this; they should be doing that…"

Yes, we can claim we want it.

But actions speak infinitely louder than words.




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Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes Signature Addition: View official OnlineBookClub.org review of In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

View Bookshelves page for In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
#422975
OMG I just got out of a relationship that you described to a "T". I was the enabler, and I've always been a "caretaker." I feel irresponsible if I don't try to help someone who needs it, and sometimes there are those who need it and don't realize it. But one thing I did learn in that relationship was, like you said, that it's NOT okay to run around forcing water on those that didn't ask for it. A much better approach, which can actually satisfy the needs of both, is to ask if they're thirsty, and if so, would they like a glass of water. Then the ball's in their court, so resentment probably won't be at issue, and the "caretaker" feels like they, too, have done what's needed without being aggressive, or unwanted (in most cases.)
Even at my age, I know I still have a lot to learn, but I was pretty proud of myself for figuring that much out by myself, so please don't steal my thunder. At least not right off the bat, anyway! :wink: Besides, I agree with [almost] everything you said! :D

Awesome club Scott, and I knew you were the creator, because your style is all over this site! I just hope I can find enough time to be a worthwhile contributor without taking away from OBC.
(Is it okay to invite people here?)

Thanks, and great job!
#422989
Scott wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:33 pm Topics: #Presence #SelfDiscipline #SpiritualFreedom #FreedomOfSpirit #FreeSpirit #SelfDetermination #SelfResponsibility #Assertiveness #Determination #Acceptance #NonViolence #NonAggression #InnerPeace



If you are thirsty and want to drink water, ask for a cup of water. Or grab a glass, and pour yourself a cup.

Don't sit around thirsty, blaming others for your misery, hating them for not reading your mind, for not somehow luckily giving you what you want without you assertively asking for it.

Unassertive communication comes in many forms but generally all are toxic, unfair, and unhealthy.

Assertiveness is not aggressiveness.

And aggression is generally a symptom of unassertiveness.

Whether it comes out as passive-aggressiveness or flat-out aggression, or even violence, if you sit there long enough thirsty, wrongfully blaming others for your own failure to take assertive self-responsibility, you will almost certainly ultimately lash out in one way or another.

And it's easy to overlook how we enable this unhealthy toxic behavior in others, to be an enabler. You can run around exhausting yourself giving people water they didn't ask for, many of whom probably aren't even thirsty and secretly have other desires regarding which they resent you because you didn't mind-read it out of their heads. Many of those that you would bend over backwards attempting to please will resent you for giving them useless water that they don't want and didn't ask for. By enabling their toxic unassertiveness, you will often also thereby make the same mistake they did. You'll expect gratitude that you won't get. In fact, you'll almost certainly often eventually get the exact opposite of gratitude, because most of us, including myself, are not nearly as good at mind-reading as we typically think. And frankly your enabling will do the exact opposite of helping them. Instead of quenching their thirst with water, you will drown them with your toxic enabling of their toxic unassertiveness. Don't force yourself to say "no" to people asking for something because you are too busy shoving it down throat of someone who didn't ask for it.

If you are truly giving out of unconditional love, it isn't done with the condition or expectation of gratitude, or any future-oriented condition or expectation. It is done because it makes you feel good in the present when it is done. It's done because it's what you want and what you choose to do. Love is not sacrificing your own happiness for someone else; love is being happy to sacrifice. In that beautiful but rare case, you become like the nurturing love-filled little child who gives her toy doll imaginary tea, and rocks the doll to bed at night, with no expectation of rewards for yourself outside the present, no expectation that the doll will give you gratitude now or ever. No expectation that the doll will return the favor. I'm not saying love people in all their complex conscious glory only as much as you love lifeless dolls, but I am saying love people at least as much as you love dolls because sadly many of us don't seem to.

If you don't get the gratitude you are looking for, it would be your fault much more than theirs, insofar as fault or blame have any real meaning, insofar as anyone is to blame or at fault at all for anything.

Indeed, as my upcoming book, "In It Together", will explain much better than a single little forum could (and even a relatively long forum post is short compared to a book that I literally spent years working on), when we fully understand and accept what I am getting at with this post and line of reasoning, there is no real meaning in blame or fault. When it comes to our choices, we each get exactly what we want, meaning what we choose.

The irony of self-responsibility and spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) is that really it is there whether you accept it or not. You are always responsible for yourself. You are always in complete and total control of your choices, even if we use the illusion of 'shoulds' and 'oughts' to distract ourselves from our own present cans and cannots, and our present dos and do nots, meaning our choices in the present.

We can sit around claiming we want to drink the water that is available to drink while not drinking it and resentfully blaming others for not magically reading our minds and shoving it down our throat for us, while saying, "they should be doing such and such instead of what they are actually doing".

Yes, we can sit around claiming we want it, while blabbering silently in our own heads about imaginary 'shoulds' and 'oughts', words that are at best meaningless. "We should be doing this; they should be doing that…"

Yes, we can claim we want it.

But actions speak infinitely louder than words.




---
they-will-be-right.jpg
I found the outpost interesting to read and think that the issues are often not paid attention to enough within philosophy. Often in life people pride themselves on their 'goodness' in making sacrifices and putting others first. It goes back to the idea of love your neighbour as yourself and the golden rule. However, the 'yourself' aspect can get left out or distorted in some ways. It is possible to go to the complete extremes of selflessness, as a form of martyrdom, or to an aggressive pursuit of one's personal goals and pleasures.

It is an area which I have experienced difficulties with and struggled to find the a right balance. As a teenager I used to always try to think of others first. I came to the realisation that in social life if one tries to sacrifice personal needs it can give rise to bitterness. Also, it can able others to take advantage, especially in the context of an individualistic and competitive cultural climate.

I have come to value the idea of assertiveness and think that many misunderstand it. It sometimes is imagined as being some self-centred attempt to focus on one's goals. On the contrary, assertiveness is best understood as being about making one's own needs clear and understanding and respecting those of others, as a win-win approach. It involves a careful negotiation of boundaries and respect for one's own needs and those of others.
#423013
Just Jacki wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 1:20 am Awesome club Scott, and I knew you were the creator, because your style is all over this site! I just hope I can find enough time to be a worthwhile contributor without taking away from OBC.
(Is it okay to invite people here?)
Yes, please do!

And thank you for you kind words! I am glad you liked my post. :D
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes Signature Addition: View official OnlineBookClub.org review of In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

View Bookshelves page for In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
#423134
Yes, assertiveness is important to relationships.

I think it's tied up with ego boundaries - knowing what is your area of responsibility and what isn't.

Some of your words suggest that you may be extrapolating from the existence of illusory "shoulds and oughts" to the rejection of real "shoulds and oughts".

But I hope you're far too experienced a philosopher to make such a mistake...
#423157
Scott wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:33 pm If you are thirsty and want to drink water, ask for a cup of water. Or grab a glass, and pour yourself a cup.

Don't sit around thirsty, blaming others for your misery, hating them for not reading your mind, for not somehow luckily giving you what you want without you assertively asking for it.
Possibly if you are suffering an injustice, you can be assertive to demand your rights. Assertiveness assumes you have the right to make demands. You probably have rights in the UK to have clean water, but you don't have those same rights in third world countries. If you asserted yourself demanding water in the third world, they might be justified in saying, no, you walk five miles and get your own.

You could be assertive and demand not to be kept waiting, but if that ignores the ten people in the queue in front, how can you justify assertiveness? At what point do our rights infringe on others?
#423266
If you are in a small group, say a family or a relationship or perhaps some work groups, if everyone looks out for one another when they are in need, merely pointing out your problem (without demanding the solution) will at minimum lead to a discussion and commonly to the solution (or at least a solution) being proffered.

So long story short, consider your audience.
#439116
Hi, EricPH,

Thank you for your reply! :)

EricPH wrote: September 24th, 2022, 1:32 pm Assertiveness assumes you have the right to make demands.
Not necessarily. In fact, I'd say usually the exact opposite is the case, depending on the circumstances of course.

You can assert what you want or believe, without any expectation that others will act on it. You can assertively make a request (e.g. "please give me a glass of water right now") both (1) while respecting the other person's right or freedom or ability to not do what you request, and (2) without expecting the person to do it at all, let alone expecting them to blindly obey you.

For instance, I consider myself to be extremely assertive, but also I have absolutely no expectations at all. I have the consistent true happiness that is inner peace because I have no unmet expectations at all. If I want something that someone can give me, I ask. If I don't even ask for something from someone, I especially and doubly don't have an expectation that they would give it to me.

Many times, an unassertive person expects others to act on their wants, which is a significant part of what leads to their aggression and/or toxic passive aggressiveness. Generally speaking, it's very unassertive to simple say, "I want want water", or to simply say, "I am thirsty". That is, assuming what you really want is for the person listening to get and give you water.

Expecting someone to feed you merely because you are hungry is toxic unassertiveness, at least insofar as you don't explicitly ask to be fed or given food. It's a step towards the mature and assertive to say, "I am hungry" rather than saying nothing and expecting that to be mind-read as well. Nonetheless, if what you really mean or want is to be fed, then the mature healthy assertive words would tend to be something like, "I would like to be fed. Will you please get some food right now?"

Generally speaking, expecting others to mind-read to or read between the lines is toxic unassertiveness.

It's toxically unassertive people who tend to have the unreasonable desires and expectation, not just because they expect their desires to be mind-read which is indeed itself also unreasonable and toxic, but because they don't want to ask or request precisely so that you can't say no. Some would rather passive aggressively resent you in childish immature ways, or lash out in more wild ones, for not doing what they secretly want rather than politely and assertively ask you to do it. They would choose to resentfully and unassertively think to themselves about someone, "She is such a selfish b-word because she didn't do such-and-such," rather than simply ask for such-and-such and respect the answer.

A passive aggressive or otherwise toxically unassertive person who thinks they have a right to be fed just because they are hungry, and, worse yet, thinks you have a responsibility to mind-read that desire and get them food, will, of course, tend to not be assertive. They don't respect your freedom to choose to not get them food enough to even bother asking you to do it. You will tend to not hear that person respectively and assertively ask, "I would like to be fed. Will you please get some food right now?"

In other words, unassertiveness is often a symptom of arrogant entitlement.

One primarily reason that truly assertive people will assertively ask or assertively request is precisely because they respect your right to say no. It's not just that they understand you'll be less likely to do it if they don't ask, but also that they understand you don't have to do it at all.

In contrast, people who don't respect your right to say no, are likely to not even bother asking. Typically, they feel too entitled to ask. Then they resort to aggressive demanding or passive aggressive expecting, or other similar toxic unassertiveness.


EricPH wrote: September 24th, 2022, 1:32 pmIf you asserted yourself demanding water in the third world, they might be justified in saying, no, you walk five miles and get your own.
Words are equivocal, and different people use the same words differently, but typically I associate "demanding" with aggressiveness, not assertiveness.

Aggressiveness is to assertiveness what arrogance is to confidence. It's really the opposite in overcompensating disguise. An arrogant person is someone who is very insecure and not at all confident. Likewise, aggressive people are, as a rule, very unassertive.

People who lack confident respectful assertiveness tend to inevitably overcompensate with frustrated resentful angry aggression including but not limited to both outright violent aggression as well as passive aggressiveness, to name just two of the many ways toxic unassertiveness can manifest.


Thank you,
Scott
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes Signature Addition: View official OnlineBookClub.org review of In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

View Bookshelves page for In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
#439123
This is a very important philosophical topic and I would like to commend Scott for such wonderful platform. However, I would also take out time to think this topic through in other to contribute a perfect response. Again, I belive that what I have been seeing thus far in the reply section is worthy of commendation too.
#439797
I agree with the perspective that toxically unassertive people often have unreasonable desires and expectations, and that their behavior is rooted in an arrogant sense of entitlement. When someone expects others to mind-read their desires and fulfill them without asking, they are essentially disregarding the other person's autonomy and agency.

It's important to note that being assertive does not mean being aggressive or demanding. Rather, assertiveness involves communicating one's needs and desires in a clear and respectful manner, while also acknowledging and respecting the other person's right to say no. People who are truly assertive are comfortable with the possibility of rejection or disagreement, and are able to handle it in a mature and respectful way.

On the other hand, toxically unassertive people may resort to passive-aggressive behavior or resentment when their desires are not fulfilled, rather than asking for what they want in a clear and respectful manner. This kind of behavior is not only toxic, but can also harm relationships and lead to unnecessary conflict.

Overall, respecting others' autonomy and being assertive while also respecting the other person's right to say no is key to healthy communication and relationships.
In It Together review: https://forums.onlinebookclub.org/viewt ... p?t=545620
#440028
LuckyR wrote: September 25th, 2022, 8:38 pm If you are in a small group, say a family or a relationship or perhaps some work groups, if everyone looks out for one another when they are in need, merely pointing out your problem (without demanding the solution) will at minimum lead to a discussion and commonly to the solution (or at least a solution) being proffered.

So long story short, consider your audience.
I do agree with considering your audience. In some relationships you can reach an understanding of eachother that enables you to guess or know what the other wants/needs and vice-versa. However, I think we should never make this assumption, as this puts a lot of pressure on the relationship. Effective communication in a relationship largely ties into assertiveness, and expressing your true wants and needs in an open and honest way.
Last edited by Catalina Isabel on April 15th, 2023, 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
#440029
How does "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth" fit in here? Doesn't the proposition contradict a basic Christian beatitude?
Favorite Philosopher: Alan Watts Location: Germany
#440539
Stoppelmann wrote: April 14th, 2023, 3:25 pm Doesn't the proposition contradict a basic Christian beatitude?
If my own simple sentences about coffee contradict themselves, then surely they (and my other more deeper and more meaningful and complex sentences) would contradict various teachings of various religions. But, of course, I believe a person who thinks I have contradicted myself has rather deeply misunderstood me and even deeply misunderstood even my simple short sentences about coffee, which of course I do not think contradict each other at all.

Thus, to understand you, or have any hope at all of being understood by you, I would first need your direct yes or no answer to this direct yes or no question that I asked you in my other topic, Man Is Not Fit to Govern Man:

Scott wrote: February 23rd, 2023, 2:02 pm
Let's look at the following four sentences, all four of which I believe to be true:

1. I, Scott, do not believe we 'should' or 'ought' to drink coffee tomorrow morning.

2. I, Scott, do not believe we 'should' or 'ought' to not drink coffee tomorrow morning.

3. I, Scott, will drink coffee tomorrow morning.

4. I, Scott, don't know if you will drink coffee tomorrow morning or not, and I, Scott, lovingly don't care if you do drink coffee tomorrow or not.


I don't believe any of the above four statements contradict any of the other ones. Do you?

I don't believe any of the above four statements contradict any of the other ones. Do you? Yes or no?
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes Signature Addition: View official OnlineBookClub.org review of In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

View Bookshelves page for In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
#441020
Scott wrote: September 21st, 2022, 3:33 pm If you are truly giving out of unconditional love, it isn't done with the condition or expectation of gratitude, or any future-oriented condition or expectation. It is done because it makes you feel good in the present when it is done. It's done because it's what you want and what you choose to do. Love is not sacrificing your own happiness for someone else; love is being happy to sacrifice.
This is so wonderfully true. So many people overlook the true meaning of unconditional love and fill it with "ought to have done" and "should have done."
Unassertiveness brings high expectations and toxicity in both the relationship and the person. Such people always think that their needs are not met and expect others to fulfil them without the former having to say it out loud.
And most importantly, actions do always speak louder than words which is impossible to do without being assertive and determined.
In It Together review: https://forums.onlinebookclub.org/viewt ... p?t=500327
#444633
I am in the same situation. I am a "fixer" or "problem solver" and feel the need to take on other people's problems and try to help them even when I have not been asked for help. This book helped me realize I can't force my help and advice on people who are not asking for it. It is an injustice to myself and others. My boyfriend and I have started asking each other "do you need advice or an ear right now?" and "how can I best support you in this situation"? It has made a world of difference! He would often go frustrated by my trying to fix situations and I didn't understand because I thought I was doing something nice and helpful.
Just Jacki wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 1:20 am OMG I just got out of a relationship that you described to a "T". I was the enabler, and I've always been a "caretaker." I feel irresponsible if I don't try to help someone who needs it, and sometimes there are those who need it and don't realize it. But one thing I did learn in that relationship was, like you said, that it's NOT okay to run around forcing water on those that didn't ask for it. A much better approach, which can actually satisfy the needs of both, is to ask if they're thirsty, and if so, would they like a glass of water. Then the ball's in their court, so resentment probably won't be at issue, and the "caretaker" feels like they, too, have done what's needed without being aggressive, or unwanted (in most cases.)
Even at my age, I know I still have a lot to learn, but I was pretty proud of myself for figuring that much out by myself, so please don't steal my thunder. At least not right off the bat, anyway! :wink: Besides, I agree with [almost] everything you said! :D

Awesome club Scott, and I knew you were the creator, because your style is all over this site! I just hope I can find enough time to be a worthwhile contributor without taking away from OBC.
(Is it okay to invite people here?)

Thanks, and great job!

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December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021


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