The November 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month is In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All.

If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you?

Discuss the November 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes.

To post in this forum, you must buy and read the book. After buying the book, please email a copy of your receipt to Scott@OnlinePhilosophyClub.com to be given access to this forum.
Forum rules
This forum is for discussing the book In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All. Anyone can view the forum and read the post, but only people who purchased the book can post in the forum.

If your purchased has not already been verified, please email a copy of your receipt to Scott@OnlinePhilosophyClub.com to be given access to this forum.
User avatar
Scott
Site Admin
Posts: 4812
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you?

Post by Scott »

This is a discussion forum topic for the November 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

The below question is in a way simply a variation of the opening question of the book, worded very differently.


If over the next 30 years, your body (including your brain) very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body (including my brain), would you still be you?

Would you also be me?



If we apply the concept of the 'Two Yous' from the book, which can then be extrapolated to include a concept of there being two types/meanings of me, then each of one above questions actually represents four different questions (the 2 of you multiplied by the 2 of me: 2x2=4). Of course, needless to say, those who read the book already know that the real you and the real me are one in the same, which answers most if not all of those four questions. :)

In at least one of the senses in which the question can be interpreted, the answer certainly is that you would also be me because you already always have been and always will be me (also). In other words, you always have been and always will be both me and you because me and you--in terms of the real us--are one in the same.

If it helps, re-read this entire post but read it as if it is not being written by 36-year-old Scott in Manchester, CT, but instead is being written by one of your infinite past or distant future selves to your current self. Imagine the 10-years-younger version of the human you see in the mirror wrote this to you, so that when I have written the word I or the word me, I am referring to the 10-years-younger version of the human you see in the mirror. ;)

Feel free to write a version of this letter out in the first person addressed to your 10-year-older self, and read it in 10 years, so at that point in spacetime you don't even have to imagine it's from your past self: It will literally be from your past self at the point.



******
In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
View: on Bookshelves | on Amazon | on Barnes and Noble

Image
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Richardkcaputophd009
Premium Member
Posts: 6
Joined: November 3rd, 2022, 10:20 am

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Richardkcaputophd009 »

I suspect not - the environment that impacts the development of your-body-becoming-my-body differs from my body which is being transformed if it were even possible.
User avatar
Scott
Site Admin
Posts: 4812
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Scott »

Richardkcaputophd009 wrote: November 16th, 2022, 3:28 pm I suspect not - the environment that impacts the development of your-body-becoming-my-body differs from my body which is being transformed if it were even possible.
Thank you for your reply. I am not sure exactly what you mean. Do you mind elaborating a bit more?
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Richardkcaputophd009
Premium Member
Posts: 6
Joined: November 3rd, 2022, 10:20 am

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Richardkcaputophd009 »

Analogously, think of two atom-by-atom-identical selves living apart in two different universes. The environment in each would be different, thereby affecting how each develops over time.
Jkk67-
Premium Member
Posts: 2
Joined: November 3rd, 2022, 10:24 am

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Jkk67- »

I find the question nonsensical. Look at it this way. If a glass morphed molecule by molecule into another glass, would it be the same glass. And, what difference does it make. The body is simply a vessel for one’s life force (soul etc). From one point of view, the vessel matters little. What is most concerning is, how attached, mentally, philosophically etc, is a person to their body? That’s where the body can be trouble, yet even then it’s not the body’s fault, but the person’s
User avatar
Scott
Site Admin
Posts: 4812
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Scott »

Richardkcaputophd009 wrote: November 16th, 2022, 3:48 pm Analogously, think of two atom-by-atom-identical selves living apart in two different universes. The environment in each would be different, thereby affecting how each develops over time.
That explains why in practice it's unlikely that you would randomly morph into an atom-by-atom copy of me.

Likewise, if you did, we could image that would require the environment in which you find yourself would likewise to have to have morph to a certain degree to also match the environment in which I find myself.

So please do imagine then that not only does your human body slowly morph into an atom-by-atom copy of my current 36-year-old body, but that your surroundings similarly morph at similar very slow into a nearly identical copy of my current surroundings.

This would mean after 30 years of gradual change that is unnoticeable minute by minute 'you' would eventually find 'yourself' in a body that is an identical copy of mine in an environment/surroundings that is at least nearly identical to mine.

Would you still be you?

Would you be me?

Would you simultaneously be both me and you?
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
User avatar
Scott
Site Admin
Posts: 4812
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Scott »

Hi, Jkk67-,

Thank you for your reply. :)

Jkk67- wrote: November 16th, 2022, 3:55 pm I find the question nonsensical.
How is the question nonsensical exactly?

Which question(s) is allegedly nonsensical specifically?

The original post contained several questions:

(1) If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you?

(2) If over the next 30 years, your body (including your brain) very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body (including my brain), would you still be you?

(3) Would you also be me?



If you are saying that all three are each nonsensical, can you explain individually specifically why each specific question of the three is nonsensical?

Jkk67- wrote: November 16th, 2022, 3:55 pmLook at it this way. If a glass morphed molecule by molecule into another glass, would it be the same glass. And, what difference does it make. The body is simply a vessel for one’s life force (soul etc). From one point of view, the vessel matters little. What is most concerning is, how attached, mentally, philosophically etc, is a person to their body? That’s where the body can be trouble, yet even then it’s not the body’s fault, but the person’s
Are the above ~6 sentences meant to be evidence/argument for your statement/conclusion that my original question(s) are (allegedly) non-nonsensical? Or are they meant as an answer to the question(s)?

Without that context, I'm not sure I can understand the above quoted ~6 sentences of yours.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Jkk67-
Premium Member
Posts: 2
Joined: November 3rd, 2022, 10:24 am

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Jkk67- »

Both actually, evidence the question is nonsensical and as an answer to the question. No matter the length of the metamorphosis, 30 minutes or 30 years, my point is, without the essence of the person, it would simply be a clone. Most philosophies/religions have as one of their underlying tenets, non attachment to physical things, including the body. Which to my understanding renders a question of physical metamorphosis moot. Besides. Even if such a morphing could take place the cells would be copies not originals and therefore not the same. Even the new brain would not have the actual experiences of the one being copied. So, one might as well be looking in a mirror and wondering if the image in the mirror is real
Maduabuchi Eze
Premium Member
Posts: 1
Joined: November 3rd, 2022, 10:16 am

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Maduabuchi Eze »

To further my previous point, I would still be me and I would not be you, not now, not ever. This is because our true identity, that is, the defining aspect of our true nature is spiritual and unique (even though, as you mentioned in your book, there are certain energies and aspirations we hold in common). The body, that is this outer garment, is unstable, deceptive, and volatile. If it were not, it wouldn't have even tried to morph into anybody's form. And as it morphed into yours so also can it morph into whatever else it feels like (say an atom-to-atom copy of a goat; hahaha). So, that kind of "material" is too unreliable to define our nature. And so, our ultimate nature are unique and yet connected. Your true unique self is self-reliant. Mine is too. You are there and I am here, only connected by the "common struggle."
Silvo
Premium Member
Posts: 2
Joined: November 3rd, 2022, 10:16 am

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Silvo »

The brain, for instance, requires 100% of certain cells to function normally. I am not a guru in science, but I guess all these cells interact and share "information." So, if atom A in me is replaced with atom B from someone else, atom A will interact with my remaining atoms, bringing in new traits and at the same time absorbing new ones from his new environment. In the end, when all my cells have been replaced, they will have left a copy of their traits in the new ones. At the same time, the new cells will have inherited their traits from their previous host. Therefore, I think it's possible for me to still be me and also be you, but only if the cells were morphed gradually. 

The real Silvio Omutsiambo
Dattatraya
Premium Member
Posts: 16
Joined: November 3rd, 2022, 10:16 am

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Dattatraya »

After reading all the posts ( as of now) it's my observation and conclusion, that the original question and the answers opinions/comments/discussion of the participants, are related/concerned (only ) about ' change in the body '.

Why we should not go and think beyond ' body ' ?! ( one member has rightly said: the body is not more than ' simply a vessel for one's life force ' )

The reader/anybody will be in a better position to think about and comment or give opinion, about the original question;
if ' I ' , ' Me '. ' you '. are defined completely .

And what is ' one's life force ' ?

:)
Dattatraya
Premium Member
Posts: 16
Joined: November 3rd, 2022, 10:16 am

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Dattatraya »

Maduabuchi Eze wrote: November 16th, 2022, 6:09 pm To further my previous point, I would still be me and I would not be you, not now, not ever. This is because our true identity, that is, the defining aspect of our true nature is spiritual and unique (even though, as you mentioned in your book, there are certain energies and aspirations we hold in common). The body, that is this outer garment, is unstable, deceptive, and volatile. If it were not, it wouldn't have even tried to morph into anybody's form. And as it morphed into yours so also can it morph into whatever else it feels like (say an atom-to-atom copy of a goat; hahaha). So, that kind of "material" is too unreliable to define our nature. And so, our ultimate nature are unique and yet connected. Your true unique self is self-reliant. Mine is too. You are there and I am here, only connected by the "common struggle."
I liked.
'So, that kind of "material" is too unreliable to define our nature. And so, our ultimate nature are unique and yet connected. Your true unique self is self-reliant. Mine is too. You are there and I am here, only connected by the "common struggle." '

I will request and be very happy to know more about " our ultimate nature "!

:)
User avatar
Scott
Site Admin
Posts: 4812
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Scott »

Jkk67- wrote: November 16th, 2022, 3:55 pmLook at it this way. If a glass morphed molecule by molecule into another glass, would it be the same glass. And, what difference does it make. The body is simply a vessel for one’s life force (soul etc). From one point of view, the vessel matters little. What is most concerning is, how attached, mentally, philosophically etc, is a person to their body? That’s where the body can be trouble, yet even then it’s not the body’s fault, but the person’s
Scott wrote: November 16th, 2022, 4:13 pm Are the above ~6 sentences meant to be evidence/argument for your statement/conclusion that my original question(s) are (allegedly) non-nonsensical? Or are they meant as an answer to the question(s)?
Jkk67- wrote: November 16th, 2022, 4:40 pm Both actually, evidence the question is nonsensical and as an answer to the question.
I suspect that is a contradiction. A nonsensical question lacks meaning and cannot be answered. If it is indeed truly nonsensical, that is. If you can (and do) answer the question, then therefore the question must be meaningful, answerable, and sensical.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
User avatar
Scott
Site Admin
Posts: 4812
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Scott »

Maduabuchi Eze wrote: November 16th, 2022, 6:09 pm our true identity, that is, the defining aspect of our true nature is spiritual and unique (even though, as you mentioned in your book, there are certain energies and aspirations we hold in common).

[emphasis added]
Thank you for your reply, Maduabuchi. :)

On what basis are you claiming our spirit(s) are "unique". What evidence is there for that alleged uniqueness?

Is it possible you've accidentally committed the begging the question fallacy?

To better understand the context of your reply, may I ask what your answers are to the opening question in the book? (It's titled the "opening question", it's technically two questions.)
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
User avatar
Scott
Site Admin
Posts: 4812
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Scott »

Silvo wrote: November 17th, 2022, 6:19 am The brain, for instance, requires 100% of certain cells to function normally. I am not a guru in science, but I guess all these cells interact and share "information." So, if atom A in me is replaced with atom B from someone else, atom A will interact with my remaining atoms, bringing in new traits and at the same time absorbing new ones from his new environment. In the end, when all my cells have been replaced, they will have left a copy of their traits in the new ones. At the same time, the new cells will have inherited their traits from their previous host. Therefore, I think it's possible for me to still be me and also be you, but only if the cells were morphed gradually. 
I agree. I would probably use the word 'relationships' instead of 'traits', since the qualities described are presumably extrinsic, not intrinsic, to any individual atom. I think the word 'relationships' implies that more clearly than 'traits', but that's just semantics and surely either word can work to denote the denotative meaning. :)
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Post Reply

Return to “Discuss "In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All" by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes”

2023 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021