The January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month is Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger.

If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you?

Discuss the November 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes.

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Sushan
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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Sushan »

Scott wrote: November 17th, 2022, 12:26 pm
Dattatraya wrote: November 17th, 2022, 6:44 am After reading all the posts ( as of now) it's my observation and conclusion, that the original question and the answers opinions/comments/discussion of the participants, are related/concerned (only ) about ' change in the body '.

Why we should not go and think beyond ' body ' ?! ( one member has rightly said: the body is not more than ' simply a vessel for one's life force ' )

The reader/anybody will be in a better position to think about and comment or give opinion, about the original question;
if ' I ' , ' Me '. ' you '. are defined completely .

And what is ' one's life force ' ?

:)
Interesting points and questions! :)

Perhaps, the words "I", "me", and "you"—at least in the sense of what the book refers to as the real you and the real me and the real us—all refer to that which never changes.

That would help explain why few if any would talk about it changing: For then it is something that by definition does not and cannot change.

Then, possibly, we could define the bodily and physical as that which is under constant flux, meaning that which constantly changing.
What I have heard from both religious as well as philosophical content is that the things that never changes is 'changing'. And I think it is applicable to everything including consciousness as well. Why should consciousness remain unchanged while everything else that even influence the existence of the consciousness are changing. (I do not think that consciousness is an independent thing which is devoid of any inputs from other sources including our body and it senses)
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Sushan »

Bertha Jackson wrote: November 17th, 2022, 12:56 pm Even though we may appear to be the same person, I do not believe our souls will change. Therefore, we would still be two separate individuals who may look and think alike.
If the souls are not changed, why would the two of us think alike? And when the bodies are changed, why would we look alike? When our brains and everything else are changed, why would we think alike? Why would anything have to be changed from their state before the morph, simply because of the morph? 🤔
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Sushan »

Scott wrote: November 17th, 2022, 4:25 pm
Bertha Jackson wrote: November 17th, 2022, 12:56 pm Even though we may appear to be the same person, I do not believe our souls will change. Therefore, we would still be two separate individuals who may look and think alike.
What if the atom-by-atom copy of me was made with the actual atoms from my original body?

For example, what if somehow, the atoms in your body were swapped out one-by-one with the atoms from my body, such that your body didn't merely become a copy of mine but also became a literal re-creation (along the lines of the Star Trek transporter) of mine with the actual atoms that currently make up mine?

Or vice versa: What if mine become a copy of yours, with your memories and everything?
If I am understanding this correct, then one of the two selves should have gone from the physical world, and two identical copies of one's self should have remained. If the only thing that could not have replaced was consciousness, then the real self would have still remained. But for the outer world, one of the two would have been just a past memory.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Sushan »

mrlefty0706 wrote: November 19th, 2022, 12:36 am I have read several of the replies to this topic and I can see how readers have different perspectives. I agree with the author that one would be an identical copy of the other since it is atom by atom including the brain. The only difference that cannot be duplicated is one's soul since it is not a physical part of the body but is an extremely important part of every human being. I do believe that people like Putin are soulless but that should stimulate a different topic.
I can agree with the initial part of your comment. But regarding some fellows being soulless, I think it is just a figurative speech rather than a literal one. Either we all should have souls, or none of us should have souls. There cannot be any in betweens. If it is necessary to have a soul to be a talking and living human being, then even Putin should have a soul, despite his political decisions and agendas. And if this topic is needed to be extended to a political one, I think there are many political leaders who can be put on the same pedestal as Putin.
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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Dattatraya »

Sushan wrote: November 28th, 2022, 2:43 am
Scott wrote: November 17th, 2022, 12:03 pm
Maduabuchi Eze wrote: November 16th, 2022, 6:09 pm our true identity, that is, the defining aspect of our true nature is spiritual and unique (even though, as you mentioned in your book, there are certain energies and aspirations we hold in common).

[emphasis added]
Thank you for your reply, Maduabuchi. :)

On what basis are you claiming our spirit(s) are "unique". What evidence is there for that alleged uniqueness?

Is it possible you've accidentally committed the begging the question fallacy?

To better understand the context of your reply, may I ask what your answers are to the opening question in the book? (It's titled the "opening question", it's technically two questions.)
Well, nothing discussed in this topic are physically provable, but only allegations. So we can neither accept nor deny our consciousnesses being either unique or common. Since we do not see our consciousnesses (or cannot see) what we can say for sure is that we all are different ane unique from what is there to be seen, including our bodies, clothes, behaviours, egos, etc.
:)

' Since we do not see our consciousnesses (or cannot see) what we can say for sure is that we all are different ane unique from what is there to be seen, including our bodies, clothes, behaviours, egos, etc.'

I am having a query here.
Is our topic/ subject and question is restricted to only things or entities which are visible?!
Spirit, consciousness, feelings and emotions which make a person ' live ' can be sensed and understood though can not be seen! 'Me and you ' are into existence - are visible - only with the above said invisible entities!
Will only the body change can complete the transformation of me into you?
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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Sushan »

hsimone wrote: November 19th, 2022, 12:59 pm Okay, I’m going to take a chance in asking a question. 😬🙃

How would this question relate to the individuals we care and love so much? Would we then shift the love we have to another significant other? Or shift the love we have for our children for other children?

Does that make sense? 🤔
I think the question is complex enough without thinking about this new question that you raised. 😉

But when thinking deeper, there cannot be a thing called love for the loved ones since we all are same when we are stripped to the core. So the love that we express towards everyone should be the same. Then there will not be any difference if I am you or you are me.
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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Sushan »

hsimone wrote: November 20th, 2022, 3:37 pm
Dattatraya wrote: November 20th, 2022, 4:47 am
hsimone wrote: November 19th, 2022, 12:59 pm Okay, I’m going to take a chance in asking a question. 😬🙃

How would this question relate to the individuals we care and love so much? Would we then shift the love we have to another significant other? Or shift the love we have for our children for other children?

Does that make sense? 🤔
' Our children '
And
'Other children '

What may be the change after
' Transformation ' predicted : There will be no existence of ' our ' and ' other '!

Here comes in the picture: The Soul !

:)
That makes sense. :)

Guess I don’t really want to think about not knowing and loving my own children since that makes it sound like none of this matters. That everything we’ve gone through to become the family that we are means nothing. Then, if none of what we do matters, then what’s the point of doing anything at all.

This is probably the most philosophical I’ve ever been! 🙃
Thinking too far is always dangerous. If we go on thinking and thinking we tend to realize that after all that we have accomplished, we simply have to leave behind our successes and loved ones and leave this world when we die. If someone ruminate over this thought it will definitely lead that one to remain without doing nothing, simply because there is no use in doing anything. Why should we achieve things if they are temporary? Why should not we wait till the inevitable dedeath comes to us without uselessly tiring ourselves?
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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Sushan »

Dattatraya wrote: November 21st, 2022, 12:46 am
Mayuri Kotalawala wrote: November 21st, 2022, 12:14 am "Whatever we do is directed by our Mind. And maybe by Soul.The value of our acts is always included in the work itself.There is no need to think about the intention and result. If we are honest and genuine, we will get satisfaction and happiness!"- Dattatraya, this I can agree with.
I am very happy, Sister.
I will like to add - We are driven by Destiny!
And Destiny is always with us.
Never to bother for disturbances.

:)
That leaves me with a question. If we are driven by the destiny, why should we try to achieve and gain things, without we merely achieving and gaining what are destined for us? When people cunningly gain what is more suitable for someone else, do they change the destiny of them as well as the other party? 🤔
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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Sushan »

Mayuri Kotalawala wrote: November 26th, 2022, 12:53 pm
Richardkcaputophd009 wrote: November 25th, 2022, 5:08 pm Whatever we do is directed by our Mind. And maybe by Soul. - Meaning what?

It is what our Mind brings from the previous body or past life experience that influences the present body. For instance, if a person is good at playing a musical instrument or singing, it maybe because he/she practised it a lot in the past life and that information retained in the Mind which came to this life.
It seems like you have read the book Many Mansions, and I too have to agree with what you say as there are occasions when people like musicians bring their talents from their births. And there is no way to explain such a thing either without the support of this sort of a theory, or finding whether their mothers had extensive music lessons while they were pregnant. If there was nothing unique in different humans, there should not have been any difference among humans at all.

And by the way, I am happy to see someone from my own country participating in this discussion. 😊
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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Dattatraya »

Sushan wrote: November 28th, 2022, 1:54 pm
Dattatraya wrote: November 21st, 2022, 12:46 am
Mayuri Kotalawala wrote: November 21st, 2022, 12:14 am "Whatever we do is directed by our Mind. And maybe by Soul.The value of our acts is always included in the work itself.There is no need to think about the intention and result. If we are honest and genuine, we will get satisfaction and happiness!"- Dattatraya, this I can agree with.
I am very happy, Sister.
I will like to add - We are driven by Destiny!
And Destiny is always with us.
Never to bother for disturbances.

:)
That leaves me with a question. If we are driven by the destiny, why should we try to achieve and gain things, without we merely achieving and gaining what are destined for us? When people cunningly gain what is more suitable for someone else, do they change the destiny of them as well as the other party? 🤔
:)

Question 1:- We should take the meaning as- whatever we do ( maybe to achieve and gain things ) is in accordance with the plan of destiny! There is no instance of ' more or less '!

Question 2:- People cannot change the destiny of any other person or party. They try to monitor and play with their own destiny. ' Gaining cunningly ' is a temporary gain! Whoever clauses this injustice has to face consequences!

:)
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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Richardkcaputophd009 »

Would there be a difference in replacing every atom in turn rather than replacing the entire person at once?
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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Sushan »

Dattatraya wrote: November 30th, 2022, 9:46 am
Sushan wrote: November 28th, 2022, 1:54 pm
Dattatraya wrote: November 21st, 2022, 12:46 am
Mayuri Kotalawala wrote: November 21st, 2022, 12:14 am "Whatever we do is directed by our Mind. And maybe by Soul.The value of our acts is always included in the work itself.There is no need to think about the intention and result. If we are honest and genuine, we will get satisfaction and happiness!"- Dattatraya, this I can agree with.
I am very happy, Sister.
I will like to add - We are driven by Destiny!
And Destiny is always with us.
Never to bother for disturbances.

:)
That leaves me with a question. If we are driven by the destiny, why should we try to achieve and gain things, without we merely achieving and gaining what are destined for us? When people cunningly gain what is more suitable for someone else, do they change the destiny of them as well as the other party? 🤔
:)

Question 1:- We should take the meaning as- whatever we do ( maybe to achieve and gain things ) is in accordance with the plan of destiny! There is no instance of ' more or less '!

Question 2:- People cannot change the destiny of any other person or party. They try to monitor and play with their own destiny. ' Gaining cunningly ' is a temporary gain! Whoever clauses this injustice has to face consequences!

:)
This sounds scary. So do we not have even our own volition? Do we do things just because they are being written somewhere to be done by us at a particular time in a particular way?

But why this destiny is so discriminating then? How does it choose some people to be rich while some being poor? Why everyone cannot be equal?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Sushan »

Richardkcaputophd009 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 4:39 pm Would there be a difference in replacing every atom in turn rather than replacing the entire person at once?
I think there is. When we do it atom by atom there is subtlety. When things are subtle people do not feel the change. But if something done grossly and quickly, people tend to notice that even there is no change at all. So here the author might have wanted to exclude that error that I mentioned latter from the question. Otherwise the final result will have no difference whether you replace atom by atom or the whole subject at once.
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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Dattatraya »

Sushan wrote: December 30th, 2022, 3:25 am
Richardkcaputophd009 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 4:39 pm Would there be a difference in replacing every atom in turn rather than replacing the entire person at once?
I think there is. When we do it atom by atom there is subtlety. When things are subtle people do not feel the change. But if something done grossly and quickly, people tend to notice that even there is no change at all. So here the author might have wanted to exclude that error that I mentioned latter from the question. Otherwise the final result will have no difference whether you replace atom by atom or the whole subject at once.
:wink:
Actually the original question is not clear!
........................ identical copy of my body, would you still be you

' would I still be I ' : By which way or considering what?

Also there will be no meaning for the question or answer if there is no reference.
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Re: If your body very slowly and steadily morphed into an atom-by-atom identical copy of my body, would you still be you

Post by Sushan »

Dattatraya wrote: December 30th, 2022, 10:01 am
Sushan wrote: December 30th, 2022, 3:25 am
Richardkcaputophd009 wrote: December 2nd, 2022, 4:39 pm Would there be a difference in replacing every atom in turn rather than replacing the entire person at once?
I think there is. When we do it atom by atom there is subtlety. When things are subtle people do not feel the change. But if something done grossly and quickly, people tend to notice that even there is no change at all. So here the author might have wanted to exclude that error that I mentioned latter from the question. Otherwise the final result will have no difference whether you replace atom by atom or the whole subject at once.
:wink:
Actually the original question is not clear!
........................ identical copy of my body, would you still be you

' would I still be I ' : By which way or considering what?

Also there will be no meaning for the question or answer if there is no reference.
The whole concept is quite confusing. But in the book the author refers as one's self to the core that we all share, yet do not see because of the outer coverings comprised of our body, mind, clothes, etc. And it is said that that core is similar for every being. In that sense the changing of outer appearance (the outer covering) has nothing to do with one's real self. But the whole concept is not easy to grasp since we refer to our selves along with all these outer coverings.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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