Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Richardkcaputophd009]

Why equate spiritual freedom with self-discipline, rather than with total abandonment (aka total ecstasy)?

[Eckhart Aurelius Hughes]

I don't just roughly equate self-discipline and spiritual freedom. I use the two phrases as synonyms. The way I use the words, they refer to the exact same thing.

I am not sure what you mean by "total abandonment" or "total ecstasy". Can you explain what you mean by those phrases a bit more?

Depending on what you mean, it's possible that indeed spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) is also total abandonment.

Indeed, the eleven suggestions in the book essentially all explicitly encourage one to "let go of" (i.e. abandon) something, namely letting go of (i.e. abandoning) some kind of illusion or other spiritual trap/cage/enslavement.

[Dattatraya]

In my view -

self-discipline : creating assurance of mental stability!



spiritual freedom : Freedom from getting entangled in false
perceptions!


total abandonment : Freedom from lingering questions and
emotions!


total ecstasy : A state of being beyond reason and self-
control!

' No duality, only oneness!'

[Sushan]

In my view -

self-discipline : creating assurance of mental stability!



spiritual freedom : Freedom from getting entangled in false
perceptions!


total abandonment : Freedom from lingering questions and
emotions!


total ecstasy : A state of being beyond reason and self-
control!

' No duality, only oneness!'

When I just look at your definitions,

1) I see spiritual freedom and total abandonment as same things. If you are free from lingering questions and emotions, you will necessarily be free of false perceptions.

2) Seemingly total ecstasy is not an healthy thing because loosing (or being beyond) reasoning and self-control is not a good thing to one's well being, IMO.

[Dattatraya]

In my view -

self-discipline : creating assurance of mental stability!



spiritual freedom : Freedom from getting entangled in false
perceptions!


total abandonment : Freedom from lingering questions and
emotions!


total ecstasy : A state of being beyond reason and self-
control!

' No duality, only oneness!'

When I just look at your definitions,

1) I see spiritual freedom and total abandonment as same things. If you are free from lingering questions and emotions, you will necessarily be free of false perceptions.

2) Seemingly total ecstasy is not an healthy thing because loosing (or being beyond) reasoning and self-control is not a good thing to one's well being, IMO.

1) Your reading and analysis is correct.

2) '........ not a good thing to one's well being, IMO. '

I will like to know more about ' one's well being '!

What I meant in my definition of total ecstasy , is not
' loosing reasoning and self-control ' but it is ' being in a state, where, there will be no need of such things! ' ( though one has the ability to analyse reasons and to control own activities! )

Actually I tried to correlate terms -- self-discipline, spiritual freedom, total abandonment and total ecstasy -- in relation to the original question!
I understand that all these terms are similar ( as said by Scott ) and represent different paths to ' well-being of a person ( i.e. living the life in real happy way! )

[Sushan]

In my view -

self-discipline : creating assurance of mental stability!



spiritual freedom : Freedom from getting entangled in false
perceptions!


total abandonment : Freedom from lingering questions and
emotions!


total ecstasy : A state of being beyond reason and self-
control!

' No duality, only oneness!'

When I just look at your definitions,

1) I see spiritual freedom and total abandonment as same things. If you are free from lingering questions and emotions, you will necessarily be free of false perceptions.

2) Seemingly total ecstasy is not an healthy thing because loosing (or being beyond) reasoning and self-control is not a good thing to one's well being, IMO.

1) Your reading and analysis is correct.

2) '........ not a good thing to one's well being, IMO. '

I will like to know more about ' one's well being '!

What I meant in my definition of total ecstasy , is not
' loosing reasoning and self-control ' but it is ' being in a state, where, there will be no need of such things! ' ( though one has the ability to analyse reasons and to control own activities! )

Actually I tried to correlate terms -- self-discipline, spiritual freedom, total abandonment and total ecstasy -- in relation to the original question!
I understand that all these terms are similar ( as said by Scott ) and represent different paths to ' well-being of a person ( i.e. living the life in real happy way! )

Thank you.

But I am yet to understand the actual meaning of 'real happiness'. Maybe I am far away from that achievement and that is why it is hard for me to grasp. But I am suspicious of achieving this state in this world as it is difficult to get void of questions, perception, responsibilities, etc.

I see your point regarding total ecstasy. Loosing one's ability to rationalize will definitely put him/her in danger. It can harm one's physical body, possessions, ego, reputation, etc. But something beyond reasoning and self-control maybe not harmful, but a good thing. But I am yet to grasp the full meaning of that.

[Dattatraya]

In my view -

self-discipline : creating assurance of mental stability!



spiritual freedom : Freedom from getting entangled in false
perceptions!


total abandonment : Freedom from lingering questions and
emotions!


total ecstasy : A state of being beyond reason and self-
control!

' No duality, only oneness!'

When I just look at your definitions,

1) I see spiritual freedom and total abandonment as same things. If you are free from lingering questions and emotions, you will necessarily be free of false perceptions.

2) Seemingly total ecstasy is not an healthy thing because loosing (or being beyond) reasoning and self-control is not a good thing to one's well being, IMO.

1) Your reading and analysis is correct.

2) '........ not a good thing to one's well being, IMO. '

I will like to know more about ' one's well being '!

What I meant in my definition of total ecstasy , is not
' loosing reasoning and self-control ' but it is ' being in a state, where, there will be no need of such things! ' ( though one has the ability to analyse reasons and to control own activities! )

Actually I tried to correlate terms -- self-discipline, spiritual freedom, total abandonment and total ecstasy -- in relation to the original question!
I understand that all these terms are similar ( as said by Scott ) and represent different paths to ' well-being of a person ( i.e. living the life in real happy way! )

Thank you.

But I am yet to understand the actual meaning of 'real happiness'. Maybe I am far away from that achievement and that is why it is hard for me to grasp. But I am suspicious of achieving this state in this world as it is difficult to get void of questions, perception, responsibilities, etc.

I see your point regarding total ecstasy. Loosing one's ability to rationalize will definitely put him/her in danger. It can harm one's physical body, possessions, ego, reputation, etc. But something beyond reasoning and self-control maybe not harmful, but a good thing. But I am yet to grasp the full meaning of that.

Let me tell you first that I am very happy to have your genuine response!
I am also happy to see this topic proceeding with real interest.
( I will frankly beg a pardan if I caused it to be diverted to other direction than that of original question!)

Now I am giving my understanding and beliefs regarding ' happiness ' and ' total ecstasy '.

Happiness:
I am submitting the definition of happiness from a dictionary, which I understood satisfactorily and I agree with.

a: a state of well-being and contentment : JOY
b: a pleasurable or satisfying experience
//I wish you every happiness in life.
//I had the happiness of seeing you
— W. S. Gilbert
I will define the same as per my understanding and ability: A state in which I experience full satisfaction!
Satisfaction of doing something valuable, achieving success in any task and most importantly being really helpful to others! This is a short description.

You said,
' But I am suspicious of achieving this state in this world as it is difficult to get void of questions, perception, responsibilities, etc. '

There is no need to think about the same because what you require to have with you is only ' sincerity and honesty ' everywhere and everytime. You will be passing out everything!(100 percent)

Total ecstasy:
* a state of overwhelming emotion.
* a state of being beyond reason and self-control.
* a state of profound abstraction or absorption.

As per my understanding I can define Total ecstasy as:
A state in which a person experiences the saturation of
a feeling of fulfillment, completion and achievement of something! This something includes any work or love in
a relationship. The person becomes immune to the external factor comprising of anything/ any matter of the life!
There will be no worries, no overthinking and no restlessness! You will be having a special predicting power, which can assure you, that everything will be fine and right though not now, but after a short period!

[Sushan]

When I just look at your definitions,

1) I see spiritual freedom and total abandonment as same things. If you are free from lingering questions and emotions, you will necessarily be free of false perceptions.

2) Seemingly total ecstasy is not an healthy thing because loosing (or being beyond) reasoning and self-control is not a good thing to one's well being, IMO.

1) Your reading and analysis is correct.

2) '........ not a good thing to one's well being, IMO. '

I will like to know more about ' one's well being '!

What I meant in my definition of total ecstasy , is not
' loosing reasoning and self-control ' but it is ' being in a state, where, there will be no need of such things! ' ( though one has the ability to analyse reasons and to control own activities! )

Actually I tried to correlate terms -- self-discipline, spiritual freedom, total abandonment and total ecstasy -- in relation to the original question!
I understand that all these terms are similar ( as said by Scott ) and represent different paths to ' well-being of a person ( i.e. living the life in real happy way! )

Thank you.

But I am yet to understand the actual meaning of 'real happiness'. Maybe I am far away from that achievement and that is why it is hard for me to grasp. But I am suspicious of achieving this state in this world as it is difficult to get void of questions, perception, responsibilities, etc.

I see your point regarding total ecstasy. Loosing one's ability to rationalize will definitely put him/her in danger. It can harm one's physical body, possessions, ego, reputation, etc. But something beyond reasoning and self-control maybe not harmful, but a good thing. But I am yet to grasp the full meaning of that.

Let me tell you first that I am very happy to have your genuine response!
I am also happy to see this topic proceeding with real interest.
( I will frankly beg a pardan if I caused it to be diverted to other direction than that of original question!)

Now I am giving my understanding and beliefs regarding ' happiness ' and ' total ecstasy '.

Happiness:
I am submitting the definition of happiness from a dictionary, which I understood satisfactorily and I agree with.

a: a state of well-being and contentment : JOY
b: a pleasurable or satisfying experience
//I wish you every happiness in life.
//I had the happiness of seeing you
— W. S. Gilbert
I will define the same as per my understanding and ability: A state in which I experience full satisfaction!
Satisfaction of doing something valuable, achieving success in any task and most importantly being really helpful to others! This is a short description.

You said,
' But I am suspicious of achieving this state in this world as it is difficult to get void of questions, perception, responsibilities, etc. '

There is no need to think about the same because what you require to have with you is only ' sincerity and honesty ' everywhere and everytime. You will be passing out everything!(100 percent)

Total ecstasy:
* a state of overwhelming emotion.
* a state of being beyond reason and self-control.
* a state of profound abstraction or absorption.

As per my understanding I can define Total ecstasy as:
A state in which a person experiences the saturation of
a feeling of fulfillment, completion and achievement of something! This something includes any work or love in
a relationship. The person becomes immune to the external factor comprising of anything/ any matter of the life!
There will be no worries, no overthinking and no restlessness! You will be having a special predicting power, which can assure you, that everything will be fine and right though not now, but after a short period!

I see. So I think it is okay to understand ecstasy as the ultimatum of happiness. Although I am not certain how to achieve the latter (for the former we all have access at different levels, and some are content with what they get while some are not), I think it is a great thing if anyone can achieve that status.

Being honest and sincere to one's own self and the close ones will give happiness to that particular one. But the world is not a safe place to such people, and there is a high chance for someone to end up in sadness rather than happiness when trying to express total honesty and sincerity to the whole world, and expect that in return.

[Dattatraya]

1) Your reading and analysis is correct.

2) '........ not a good thing to one's well being, IMO. '

I will like to know more about ' one's well being '!

What I meant in my definition of total ecstasy , is not
' loosing reasoning and self-control ' but it is ' being in a state, where, there will be no need of such things! ' ( though one has the ability to analyse reasons and to control own activities! )

Actually I tried to correlate terms -- self-discipline, spiritual freedom, total abandonment and total ecstasy -- in relation to the original question!
I understand that all these terms are similar ( as said by Scott ) and represent different paths to ' well-being of a person ( i.e. living the life in real happy way! )

Thank you.

But I am yet to understand the actual meaning of 'real happiness'. Maybe I am far away from that achievement and that is why it is hard for me to grasp. But I am suspicious of achieving this state in this world as it is difficult to get void of questions, perception, responsibilities, etc.

I see your point regarding total ecstasy. Loosing one's ability to rationalize will definitely put him/her in danger. It can harm one's physical body, possessions, ego, reputation, etc. But something beyond reasoning and self-control maybe not harmful, but a good thing. But I am yet to grasp the full meaning of that.

Let me tell you first that I am very happy to have your genuine response!
I am also happy to see this topic proceeding with real interest.
( I will frankly beg a pardan if I caused it to be diverted to other direction than that of original question!)

Now I am giving my understanding and beliefs regarding ' happiness ' and ' total ecstasy '.

Happiness:
I am submitting the definition of happiness from a dictionary, which I understood satisfactorily and I agree with.

a: a state of well-being and contentment : JOY
b: a pleasurable or satisfying experience
//I wish you every happiness in life.
//I had the happiness of seeing you
— W. S. Gilbert
I will define the same as per my understanding and ability: A state in which I experience full satisfaction!
Satisfaction of doing something valuable, achieving success in any task and most importantly being really helpful to others! This is a short description.

You said,
' But I am suspicious of achieving this state in this world as it is difficult to get void of questions, perception, responsibilities, etc. '

There is no need to think about the same because what you require to have with you is only ' sincerity and honesty ' everywhere and everytime. You will be passing out everything!(100 percent)

Total ecstasy:
* a state of overwhelming emotion.
* a state of being beyond reason and self-control.
* a state of profound abstraction or absorption.

As per my understanding I can define Total ecstasy as:
A state in which a person experiences the saturation of
a feeling of fulfillment, completion and achievement of something! This something includes any work or love in
a relationship. The person becomes immune to the external factor comprising of anything/ any matter of the life!
There will be no worries, no overthinking and no restlessness! You will be having a special predicting power, which can assure you, that everything will be fine and right though not now, but after a short period!

I see. So I think it is okay to understand ecstasy as the ultimatum of happiness. Although I am not certain how to achieve the latter (for the former we all have access at different levels, and some are content with what they get while some are not), I think it is a great thing if anyone can achieve that status.

Being honest and sincere to one's own self and the close ones will give happiness to that particular one. But the world is not a safe place to such people, and there is a high chance for someone to end up in sadness rather than happiness when trying to express total honesty and sincerity to the whole world, and expect that in return.

' But the world is not a safe place to such people, and there is a high chance for someone to end up in sadness rather than happiness when trying to express total honesty and sincerity to the whole world, and expect that in return.'

I do not think or suspect to meet people in the world who will make my living ' unsafe '!
I am confident that the people will be influenced positively and they will offer me very good cooperation ( and love in the case of similar person) when I am sincere and honest when dealing with them!

I can give you famous examples, in support of my say and confidence!

[Sushan]

Thank you.

But I am yet to understand the actual meaning of 'real happiness'. Maybe I am far away from that achievement and that is why it is hard for me to grasp. But I am suspicious of achieving this state in this world as it is difficult to get void of questions, perception, responsibilities, etc.

I see your point regarding total ecstasy. Loosing one's ability to rationalize will definitely put him/her in danger. It can harm one's physical body, possessions, ego, reputation, etc. But something beyond reasoning and self-control maybe not harmful, but a good thing. But I am yet to grasp the full meaning of that.

Let me tell you first that I am very happy to have your genuine response!
I am also happy to see this topic proceeding with real interest.
( I will frankly beg a pardan if I caused it to be diverted to other direction than that of original question!)

Now I am giving my understanding and beliefs regarding ' happiness ' and ' total ecstasy '.

Happiness:
I am submitting the definition of happiness from a dictionary, which I understood satisfactorily and I agree with.

a: a state of well-being and contentment : JOY
b: a pleasurable or satisfying experience
//I wish you every happiness in life.
//I had the happiness of seeing you
— W. S. Gilbert
I will define the same as per my understanding and ability: A state in which I experience full satisfaction!
Satisfaction of doing something valuable, achieving success in any task and most importantly being really helpful to others! This is a short description.

You said,
' But I am suspicious of achieving this state in this world as it is difficult to get void of questions, perception, responsibilities, etc. '

There is no need to think about the same because what you require to have with you is only ' sincerity and honesty ' everywhere and everytime. You will be passing out everything!(100 percent)

Total ecstasy:
* a state of overwhelming emotion.
* a state of being beyond reason and self-control.
* a state of profound abstraction or absorption.

As per my understanding I can define Total ecstasy as:
A state in which a person experiences the saturation of
a feeling of fulfillment, completion and achievement of something! This something includes any work or love in
a relationship. The person becomes immune to the external factor comprising of anything/ any matter of the life!
There will be no worries, no overthinking and no restlessness! You will be having a special predicting power, which can assure you, that everything will be fine and right though not now, but after a short period!

I see. So I think it is okay to understand ecstasy as the ultimatum of happiness. Although I am not certain how to achieve the latter (for the former we all have access at different levels, and some are content with what they get while some are not), I think it is a great thing if anyone can achieve that status.

Being honest and sincere to one's own self and the close ones will give happiness to that particular one. But the world is not a safe place to such people, and there is a high chance for someone to end up in sadness rather than happiness when trying to express total honesty and sincerity to the whole world, and expect that in return.

' But the world is not a safe place to such people, and there is a high chance for someone to end up in sadness rather than happiness when trying to express total honesty and sincerity to the whole world, and expect that in return.'

I do not think or suspect to meet people in the world who will make my living ' unsafe '!
I am confident that the people will be influenced positively and they will offer me very good cooperation ( and love in the case of similar person) when I am sincere and honest when dealing with them!

I can give you famous examples, in support of my say and confidence!

And I am sure we can find many examples that will support my side of the argument. Human beings are the most dangerous animals, not because of their higher IQ level, but because of their ability to hide their emotions and true selves. A fox cannot pretend to be a lion, and an angry lion cannot pretend that he is happy. But humans can do both these things, and there are many people who see no shame in merely utilizing the honesty of others for their own benefits, at the cost of the comfort (or any other costs) of the honest one.

[Dattatraya]

Let me tell you first that I am very happy to have your genuine response!
I am also happy to see this topic proceeding with real interest.
( I will frankly beg a pardan if I caused it to be diverted to other direction than that of original question!)

Now I am giving my understanding and beliefs regarding ' happiness ' and ' total ecstasy '.

Happiness:
I am submitting the definition of happiness from a dictionary, which I understood satisfactorily and I agree with.

a: a state of well-being and contentment : JOY
b: a pleasurable or satisfying experience
//I wish you every happiness in life.
//I had the happiness of seeing you
— W. S. Gilbert
I will define the same as per my understanding and ability: A state in which I experience full satisfaction!
Satisfaction of doing something valuable, achieving success in any task and most importantly being really helpful to others! This is a short description.

You said,
' But I am suspicious of achieving this state in this world as it is difficult to get void of questions, perception, responsibilities, etc. '

There is no need to think about the same because what you require to have with you is only ' sincerity and honesty ' everywhere and everytime. You will be passing out everything!(100 percent)

Total ecstasy:
* a state of overwhelming emotion.
* a state of being beyond reason and self-control.
* a state of profound abstraction or absorption.

As per my understanding I can define Total ecstasy as:
A state in which a person experiences the saturation of
a feeling of fulfillment, completion and achievement of something! This something includes any work or love in
a relationship. The person becomes immune to the external factor comprising of anything/ any matter of the life!
There will be no worries, no overthinking and no restlessness! You will be having a special predicting power, which can assure you, that everything will be fine and right though not now, but after a short period!

I see. So I think it is okay to understand ecstasy as the ultimatum of happiness. Although I am not certain how to achieve the latter (for the former we all have access at different levels, and some are content with what they get while some are not), I think it is a great thing if anyone can achieve that status.

Being honest and sincere to one's own self and the close ones will give happiness to that particular one. But the world is not a safe place to such people, and there is a high chance for someone to end up in sadness rather than happiness when trying to express total honesty and sincerity to the whole world, and expect that in return.

' But the world is not a safe place to such people, and there is a high chance for someone to end up in sadness rather than happiness when trying to express total honesty and sincerity to the whole world, and expect that in return.'

I do not think or suspect to meet people in the world who will make my living ' unsafe '!
I am confident that the people will be influenced positively and they will offer me very good cooperation ( and love in the case of similar person) when I am sincere and honest when dealing with them!

I can give you famous examples, in support of my say and confidence!

And I am sure we can find many examples that will support my side of the argument. Human beings are the most dangerous animals, not because of their higher IQ level, but because of their ability to hide their emotions and true selves. A fox cannot pretend to be a lion, and an angry lion cannot pretend that he is happy. But humans can do both these things, and there are many people who see no shame in merely utilizing the honesty of others for their own benefits, at the cost of the comfort (or any other costs) of the honest one.

I am delighted to receive your response. ( though after many days )

I am remembering ' half filled glass ' when I see our conversation!

" Human beings are the most dangerous animals, not because of their higher IQ level, but because of their ability to hide their emotions and true selves."

I don't know the percentage of such people. But I said I am sure that I will not meet these 'dangerous animals ' only because I follow sincerity and honesty!

You can say that I am seeing the filled part of the glass.

[Sushan]

I see. So I think it is okay to understand ecstasy as the ultimatum of happiness. Although I am not certain how to achieve the latter (for the former we all have access at different levels, and some are content with what they get while some are not), I think it is a great thing if anyone can achieve that status.

Being honest and sincere to one's own self and the close ones will give happiness to that particular one. But the world is not a safe place to such people, and there is a high chance for someone to end up in sadness rather than happiness when trying to express total honesty and sincerity to the whole world, and expect that in return.

' But the world is not a safe place to such people, and there is a high chance for someone to end up in sadness rather than happiness when trying to express total honesty and sincerity to the whole world, and expect that in return.'

I do not think or suspect to meet people in the world who will make my living ' unsafe '!
I am confident that the people will be influenced positively and they will offer me very good cooperation ( and love in the case of similar person) when I am sincere and honest when dealing with them!

I can give you famous examples, in support of my say and confidence!

And I am sure we can find many examples that will support my side of the argument. Human beings are the most dangerous animals, not because of their higher IQ level, but because of their ability to hide their emotions and true selves. A fox cannot pretend to be a lion, and an angry lion cannot pretend that he is happy. But humans can do both these things, and there are many people who see no shame in merely utilizing the honesty of others for their own benefits, at the cost of the comfort (or any other costs) of the honest one.

I am delighted to receive your response. ( though after many days )

I am remembering ' half filled glass ' when I see our conversation!

" Human beings are the most dangerous animals, not because of their higher IQ level, but because of their ability to hide their emotions and true selves."

I don't know the percentage of such people. But I said I am sure that I will not meet these 'dangerous animals ' only because I follow sincerity and honesty!

You can say that I am seeing the filled part of the glass.

I am sorry for the delayed response.

I see you as an optimistic as well as a extremely lucky fellow, as you have never expected to see a cunning fellow who covers his lies with apparent truth and have never met such a fellow. And I respect your view on the world (seeing the filled half).

I also love to be like you. And I have tried in the past as well. But in more than one occasion such fellows showed me their real selves, and that made me to a person who looks at everything with caution and suspicion. So I always look at the empty half first and then look at the filled half if I see no harm.

[ilze herholdt]

I see spiritual freedom and total abandonment as the same thing. If you are free from lingering questions and emotions, you will be free of false perceptions.

[Salah bourouba]

In my view -

self-discipline : creating assurance of mental stability!



spiritual freedom : Freedom from getting entangled in false
perceptions!


total abandonment : Freedom from lingering questions and
emotions!


total ecstasy : A state of being beyond reason and self-
control!

' No duality, only oneness!'

Actually i don't think that they relate. Maybe in a more general matter. However each one of them describes a certain way of living or state of mind. Each should be used in a completely different context than the other.
For example total ecstasy is the opposite of discipline. Ecstasy is being beyond self control while discipline is controlling and setting guidelines for your living to get the most out of it.
There for i think they don't relate and they shouldn't be used for the same meaning

[Surabhi Rani]

Self-discipline is the first stage of one's spiritual evolution. We perfect ourselves through personal and social codes of conduct. Total abandonment or ecstasy is the outcome of self-discipline or the final stage of one's spiritual evolution. So self-discipline and ecstasy are two different stages of one's spiritual freedom.