The January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month is Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger.

What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Discuss the November 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month, In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes.

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Stoppelmann
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Stoppelmann »

Sushan wrote: December 30th, 2022, 2:41 am
Bertha Jackson wrote: December 29th, 2022, 8:22 pm
Sushan wrote: December 28th, 2022, 2:49 am After reading your book I see me and you as two identical cores that are covered with memories, flesh, clothes, and many more to be socially distinguished. But there is no actual demarcation to seperate me from you, or you from me. So the scenario that you described in the question will affect neither real me nor real you in any way.
I like how you describe this.
Thank you. But it is not how I interpreted it, that is how Scott interpreted it in his book. And I think I understood that correctly. If our cores are similar, then there will not be any change when the outer coverings are changed. A computer will remain as the same computer (with its performance) even though you change its outer casing. If you replace its HDD then it will have new memories. But its core will remain unchanged.

What is hard is seeing the core and identifying it as it is, and it will be a great step in the path towards inner peace.
I would have also seen the quote as your understanding of the book, which I also believe the book is implying. What I still ask, although Scott hasn’t replied to me, is how the observer identifies, because in meditation, I find that my identity is external, bound up in appearances, thoughts, and memories, whilst at my core, there is just silence. As I mentioned before, if that observer identifies with a cosmic unity, and I am one with everything, I have no awareness of the expansiveness of existence, except what my senses perceive.
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Sushan »

Stoppelmann wrote: December 30th, 2022, 3:24 am
Sushan wrote: December 30th, 2022, 2:41 am
Bertha Jackson wrote: December 29th, 2022, 8:22 pm
Sushan wrote: December 28th, 2022, 2:49 am After reading your book I see me and you as two identical cores that are covered with memories, flesh, clothes, and many more to be socially distinguished. But there is no actual demarcation to seperate me from you, or you from me. So the scenario that you described in the question will affect neither real me nor real you in any way.
I like how you describe this.
Thank you. But it is not how I interpreted it, that is how Scott interpreted it in his book. And I think I understood that correctly. If our cores are similar, then there will not be any change when the outer coverings are changed. A computer will remain as the same computer (with its performance) even though you change its outer casing. If you replace its HDD then it will have new memories. But its core will remain unchanged.

What is hard is seeing the core and identifying it as it is, and it will be a great step in the path towards inner peace.
I would have also seen the quote as your understanding of the book, which I also believe the book is implying. What I still ask, although Scott hasn’t replied to me, is how the observer identifies, because in meditation, I find that my identity is external, bound up in appearances, thoughts, and memories, whilst at my core, there is just silence. As I mentioned before, if that observer identifies with a cosmic unity, and I am one with everything, I have no awareness of the expansiveness of existence, except what my senses perceive.
I think that is an issue with the observer. We see people differently because we see people as their external appearances rather than seeing them as their internal cores. With the former identification we will definitely notify the change after the scenario that is given in the topic. But if everyone just looks at the core, there won't be any difference, and there won't be any discriminations. Everyone will be the same. You will be me and I will be you. (I believe that I understood your point correctly)
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Stoppelmann
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Stoppelmann »

Sushan wrote: December 30th, 2022, 3:29 am I think that is an issue with the observer. We see people differently because we see people as their external appearances rather than seeing them as their internal cores. With the former identification we will definitely notify the change after the scenario that is given in the topic. But if everyone just looks at the core, there won't be any difference, and there won't be any discriminations. Everyone will be the same. You will be me and I will be you. (I believe that I understood your point correctly)
That seems to be my point, yes.

The OP is asking “If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your memories, and awoke in my body in my bed with my memories instead of yours, would you notice a difference? Would there even be a difference to notice?”

So, having new memories instead of the old, my external identity would change, but having no core identity, nothing would change as long as I remembered meditating and encountering my core self.
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Sushan »

Stoppelmann wrote: December 30th, 2022, 3:39 am
Sushan wrote: December 30th, 2022, 3:29 am I think that is an issue with the observer. We see people differently because we see people as their external appearances rather than seeing them as their internal cores. With the former identification we will definitely notify the change after the scenario that is given in the topic. But if everyone just looks at the core, there won't be any difference, and there won't be any discriminations. Everyone will be the same. You will be me and I will be you. (I believe that I understood your point correctly)
That seems to be my point, yes.

The OP is asking “If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your memories, and awoke in my body in my bed with my memories instead of yours, would you notice a difference? Would there even be a difference to notice?”

So, having new memories instead of the old, my external identity would change, but having no core identity, nothing would change as long as I remembered meditating and encountering my core self.
I think 'memories' should have been excluded from this OP to avoid any confusions because the change of memories can suddenly make someone different. We may later identify the bodily changes, but a change of mind will be noticed suddenly. And that will lead any ordinary fellow into panic, and he/she will no longer be able to even think about the similarities of the inner cores
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Bertha Jackson »

I agree with this analogy.
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by ArielJMartin »

If I had your memories, instead of mine...I would think that I would not notice the difference. If I lacked my memories, I would have never known I had different memories than the ones I now have. My awareness would now be your awareness and, if I am understanding the question correctly, the previous would no longer exist. I would now be you and no longer would I be me.
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Samantha Barnes 3 »

I wouldn't notice a difference because as far as I could know, there would be no difference to notice. Even if I was someone else the day before, if I had no memory of being her then it would be as if she had never existed.
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Pauline Parnell »

This is a very unusual question, but it's not really difficult to answer. If I awake in your bed with your body and your memories, that would mean I am you and not me. Nothing would change in me as I would have no knowledge of my former self. Your memories are now my memories. There would be no difference to notice.
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Shillah Andeso »

Every time I read this question my view tends to change. From the way I understand it, only my memory will change but I'll have the same body. I believe I will notice because what if I look in the mirror? The reflection I see will not be the one I expect. I will ask myself if I recognize the person in the mirror because I think a person always has a memory of their reflection. My answer is based on whether I will notice something different.
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Knitkat »

I think that instead is the key word here. If all of my memories are gone and I had someone else's then I would be that person and not myself. The body is really nothing more than a shell that carries you around you are your memories and thoughts. That means that erasing your memories and overriding them with another's would override you.
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Scott »

Knitkat wrote: January 29th, 2023, 4:42 pm If all of my memories are gone and I had someone else's then I would be that person and not myself. [...] you are your memories and thoughts.
Interesting perspective. In the above sentences, in regard to what the book calls "the Two Yous", is the word 'you' (and by extension the word 'I') being used to refer to what the book calls "the real you" or "the unreal you"?

In any case, if 'you' get severe amnesia do 'you' cease to exist?

In terms of what the book calls 'the unreal me', I am currently 36-years-old, and we can refer to this me writing this here and now as 36-year-old Scott. I don't have any of the same memories as 6-year-old Scott. And he had/has none of the ones I do now. Does that mean that I am not him?
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Scott »

Sushan wrote: December 28th, 2022, 2:49 am After reading your book I see me and you as two identical cores that are covered with memories, flesh, clothes, and many more to be socially distinguished. But there is no actual demarcation to seperate me from you, or you from me. So the scenario that you described in the question will affect neither real me nor real you in any way.
Very well said!

I agree. :)
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Scott
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Scott »

Pauline Parnell wrote: January 28th, 2023, 12:56 am There would be no difference to notice.
I agree.

The two situations are identical.

It's like asking if everything in the universe magically instantly was moved one meter to the right, would there be any difference to notice? Such questions and their null answers can help reveal certain things are not objective and that certain seemingly objective fundamentals (e.g. an objective background spatial coordinate system) don't actually exist.

In a sense, it's a true to say that everything is one feet to the right as it is to say that it isn't.

In a sense, it's as true to say you (i.e. the real you, and the real me) wake up in your body as it is to say you (i.e. the real you, and the real me) wake up in my body, because those two situations are identical. The more clear and even more accurate way to say the same thing is this: The real you and the real me are one in the same and do wake up in your body and wake up in mine. 'The real you' and 'the real me' are synonyms. In the sense of 'the real you' and 'the real me', you are me, and I am you, and we do already wake up in your body and in my body.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Sheilaread
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Sheilaread »

I find this whole idea extremely fascinating.

I think my answer here would be that if I became you; first of all, where would you go? Then, I’m also thinking that if I left myself and became you, there would be no change. There would still be a mind to fill with memories, to focus on being happy, sad, at peace, and all the other emotions each of us work through on a daily basis.

Other than the outer obvious differences, going to sleep as me and waking up as you would really not have any differences inside our minds.
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Re: What is your answer to the updated Opening Question? ("If you went to sleep in your body in your bed with your...")

Post by Hubre De Klerk »

I don't think you would notice any difference as you would essentially be that person. Unless there is something to make you wonder like flashbacks, dreams, and feelings of Deja Vu, I don't think you would know there was any change at all.
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