Three questions for people who believe evil actually exists

[Scott]

Yes, I was referring only to humans, not animals. But an animal can be evil too.

Yes, I try but cannot control evil things and events since they are out of my control.

Yes, I cannot change them, [...]

Hi, jemimapaul,

Is it only humans and animals that can be evil, or can other things like cancer and hurricanes be evil too?


In any case,what are your thoughts regarding the Serenity Prayer:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.

?

[jemimapaul]

The Serenity Prayer means letting go of situations beyond your control and taking action toward things within your control. It also means being able to know when things are within your control and when things are beyond your control.

Yes, even things like cancer and hurricane are evil. When God created this beautiful world, He did not intend for evil to be present. But when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, sin and evil came into the world . Thats when sicknesses like cancer and natural disasters like hurricane came into the world.

While God did not create evil, He did create angels and humans with the ability to choose right from wrong. Unfortunately, many of those choices turned out to be wicked.

However, there are Bible passages indicates that God can use what’s meant for evil and turn it into something good. The Old Testament story tells of a man named Joseph who was sold by his brothers into slavery. Years later, Joseph said this about the wrong that was done to him: “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.” (Genesis 50:20). There is also a verse in the Bible: "All things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28).

So, while evil is prevalent all over the world today, there’s comfort in knowing there’s a loving God who can take what’s meant for evil and use it for our good.

[Scott]

Hi, again, jemimapaul, thank you so much for your thoughtful replies and answers!

The Serenity Prayer means letting go of situations beyond your control and taking action toward things within your control. It also means being able to know when things are within your control and when things are beyond your control.

Yes, even things like cancer and hurricane are evil.

Perhaps we simply use some of the words differently to mean different things. But, to me, as I use the words, if I am negatively judging a hurricane as "evil", I am not fully accepting it.

Moreover, since my time, energy, and resources are all very limited, any time, energy, or resources I waste resenting the hurricane for existing or otherwise behaving unacceptingly towards it, is time, energy, and resources I take away from having the "courage to change the things I can" in the words of the Serenity Prayer.

When God created this beautiful world, He did not intend for evil to be present.

If there is a God, and there are hurricanes, and hurricanes are evil, meaning there 'ought' not be hurricanes, but are hurricanes, to me that means God did a bad job, which seems to be contradictory, assuming we are talking about an all-good all-loving all-powerful all-knowing Creator God at least.

That general concept is typically called the "Problem of Evil" in theology and philosophy, and it is extremely convincing to me.

I believe that, if evil exists (i.e. if unchangeable reality "shouldn't" be the way it unchangeably is), then an all-loving all-powerful god does not exist and cannot exist.

Of course, I don't believe that evil exists, and I don't believe that unchangeable reality 'shouldn't' be the way it unchangeably is (whatever that would mean). In fact, I don't believe in "should nots" or "ought nots" at all. I look at the whole of all creation (i.e. reality as a timeless eternal whole) and I think it is beautiful and perfect and worthy of unconditional acceptance, unconditional forgiveness, and unconditional love.

If there is an all-knowing omnipotent Creator God, then I think he did a great amazing job, and not one little speck is out of place. And that's why I have inner peace: because I look around, and all I see is infinite beauty worthy of infinite love in every direction; nothing real and true is wrong. From my perspective, reality is a perfect harmony. I have invincible consistent inner peace because, from my perspective, reality isn't wrong, ever at all.

But when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, sin and evil came into the world . Thats when sicknesses like cancer and natural disasters like hurricane came into the world.

Do you believe that God is all-knowing and all-powerful?

If so, didn't he know when he created Adam, created Eve, created the tree, and created the snake that it would happen just like that? He could have created them differently to have different results. If A + B + C results in D, then from his perspective before he even creates A or B or C, he knows that A + B + C = D with certainty. So when he chose to create A, B, and C, he thereby was also choosing to create D; right?

There are no unexpected results for an all-knowing all-powerful creator; right?


How do you feel about this image:

?

[Julie Gebrosky]

I am certainly no philosopher, but I’ll take a stab at these questions.

1. I define evil as what occurs when there is no love or care at all for other people on an extreme level. I’m not talking about ambivalence, but true hatred for others in a very self-centered way. It can be demonstrated by something intentionally done to harm another person for no greater good. I think a lot of it has to do with intent and purpose. I don't think you can be accidentally evil. I think you can make a mistake that was terrible, but if you truly didn't mean to harm, then it's not evil.

2. I think I could choose to do evil things if I wanted to, but that is not how I choose to live my life. Also, I think evil exists in the world that is out of my control because I cannot force people to show love for one another.

3. As far as change goes, I can only change myself. As I said before, I cannot force someone to stop doing something evil. I try to be the best version of myself in every scenario, and if that positively influences others, that’s even better. But I don’t think I can realistically say that I can stop evil.

[Phoebe Felix]

Hi, Phoebe Felix,

Thank you for your reply!

1. As you yourself use the term, how do you define the word 'evil'?

Here's my answer to the first question:

Evil is when someone takes a position of advantage they have over another person to intentionally inflict hurt or pain. The key word in "evil" is intentionality. We can hurt people without knowing that we did. However, if we intentionally do that, then we are evil. I try to use evil as a verb rather than a noun, as I believe no human being is evil, even though we can do evil.

Interesting definition.

As you use the term, are UFC fights evil?

What about masochism?

What do you mean by 'person' as used in your definition? Namely, can only humans be evil? Is it only evil if the victim is human?

I'll answer this question in one breath. I believe that the earth realm is humanity's domain and everything that happens in this realm (good or evil) is either done by a human or get permission from a human. If UFC fights are intentionally targeted at inflicting pain to people, then it is evil. If we bring in masochism into the conversation, then then we're looking at self-inflicted evil. Like I said, my keyword for evil is intentionality.

However, someone can do stuff with the intention of doing good and it ends up hurting people. Though people are hurt, the action or the person isn't evil.

I agree that there's a supernatural dimension to evil. However, it can only find expression in the earth realm through humans.

[Phoebe Felix]

Scott

My answer was muddled up in between your quotes. I hope you can pick it out of the thread.

Otherwise, here is what I said:

"I'll answer this question in one breath. I believe that the earth realm is humanity's domain and everything that happens in this realm (good or evil) is either done by a human or get permission from a human. If UFC fights are intentionally targeted at inflicting pain to people, then it is evil. If we bring in masochism into the conversation, then then we're looking at self-inflicted evil. Like I said, my keyword for evil is intentionality.

However, someone can do stuff with the intention of doing good and it ends up hurting people. Though people are hurt, the action or the person isn't evil.

I agree that there's a supernatural dimension to evil. However, it can only find expression in the earth realm through humans."

[Scott]

I believe that the earth realm is humanity's domain and everything that happens in this realm (good or evil) is either done by a human or get permission from a human.

What does it mean for Earth realm to be humanity's domain?

What is the Earth realm?

If we send a spaceship to Mars and build a habitat on Mars for non-human animals, could animals be evil there?

What about if victim is an animal? Is that evil? If a human intentionally causes harm to an animal is that evil?

I've seen cats torture mice for fun before killing them, and not even eating them, just killing them for fun and leaving the mouse's dead body out in the yard. According to you, that is not evil because the perpetrator is a non-human animal; correct?

Likewise, with your definition, hurricanes are not evil despite causing lots of harm to people can killing many people and children; correct?

Are you sure you use the word "evil" only to mean "a human intentionally causing harm to another human", or is there more to the definition? Is there some other aspect to being "evil"?

If the word 'evil' is just a synonym for "intentionally causing harm to a human" why use the word evil (which might be misunderstood as meaning something else or something more) instead of just saying "intentionally causing harm to a human"?

For example, if when you say, "The UFC fighter is evil," you simply only mean, "The UFC fighter caused harm to another human," why not simply only say the latter without using the word "evil" at all, which will thus be less equivocal and more clearly understood? If both wordings mean the exact same thing, then why use the more confusing equivocal word evil at all?

If UFC fights are intentionally targeted at inflicting pain to people, then it is evil.

Interesting. I love boxing with one of my best friends, Mike, as well as other sparring partners. We've both given each other bloody noises and visible bruises plenty of times. The harm we do to each other while boxing is definitely intentional. The whole object of the sport is to break through the opponent's defenses and punch the other person despite them doing their best to stop you. So, to be clear, that means under your definition of evil, my friend Mike and I are both evil; correct?

(Don't worry; I won't be offended by your answer at all, but am just asking to ensure understand your definition of evil correctly.)

[Scott]

I am certainly no philosopher, but I’ll take a stab at these questions.

1. I define evil as what occurs when there is no love or care at all for other people on an extreme level. I’m not talking about ambivalence, but true hatred for others in a very self-centered way.

Hi, Julie, thank you for your reply!

Is it a merely a complete and total lack of love, or is it true hatred, to which you refer?

What if a person or thing has neither love nor hatred at all? I don't mean ambivalence, but rather apathy, which means no hatred at all.

Is it only hatred and/or hate-based actions against humans that you consider evil?

What about if a human hates or commits hate-based actions against a non-human victim? For example, what if a person hates cats for some reason and goes around hatefully murdering cats? Is that evil?

What if someones ants and goes around hatefully killing all the ants they can find?

What if someone hates pine trees and goes hatefully killing all the pine trees they can find? Is that evil?

Those are not rhetorical questions. I am genuinely asking and interested in your answers.

I think evil exists in the world that is out of my control because I cannot force people to show love for one another.

Can you give a couple specific examples of some things that are evil that exist or happen that are completely out of your control and that you cannot change?

3. Are the things you think are "evil" things that you can change or things you cannot change?

I cannot force someone to stop doing something evil. [...] I don’t think I can realistically say that I can stop evil.

Thank you for answer. As a followup to that, I have another question, how do you feel about the concept, principle, and/or habit of fully and unconditionally accepting that which you cannot control (i.e. that which you cannot change)?

[Phoebe Felix]

I believe that the earth realm is humanity's domain and everything that happens in this realm (good or evil) is either done by a human or get permission from a human.

What does it mean for Earth realm to be humanity's domain?

What is the Earth realm?

If we send a spaceship to Mars and build a habitat on Mars for non-human animals, could animals be evil there?

What about if victim is an animal? Is that evil? If a human intentionally causes harm to an animal is that evil?

I've seen cats torture mice for fun before killing them, and not even eating them, just killing them for fun and leaving the mouse's dead body out in the yard. According to you, that is not evil because the perpetrator is a non-human animal; correct?

Likewise, with your definition, hurricanes are not evil despite causing lots of harm to people can killing many people and children; correct?

Are you sure you use the word "evil" only to mean "a human intentionally causing harm to another human", or is there more to the definition? Is there some other aspect to being "evil"?

If the word 'evil' is just a synonym for "intentionally causing harm to a human" why use the word evil (which might be misunderstood as meaning something else or something more) instead of just saying "intentionally causing harm to a human"?

For example, if when you say, "The UFC fighter is evil," you simply only mean, "The UFC fighter caused harm to another human," why not simply only say the latter without using the word "evil" at all, which will thus be less equivocal and more clearly understood? If both wordings mean the exact same thing, then why use the more confusing equivocal word evil at all?

If UFC fights are intentionally targeted at inflicting pain to people, then it is evil.

Interesting. I love boxing with one of my best friends, Mike, as well as other sparring partners. We've both given each other bloody noises and visible bruises plenty of times. The harm we do to each other while boxing is definitely intentional. The whole object of the sport is to break through the opponent's defenses and punch the other person despite them doing their best to stop you. So, to be clear, that means under your definition of evil, my friend Mike and I are both evil; correct?

(Don't worry; I won't be offended by your answer at all, but am just asking to ensure understand your definition of evil correctly.)

Boxing is a sport and there are rules of engagement. You may have believed that your intention was to inflict pain on your friend, but that's not completely true. Your intention is to do what you can to win the game. If inflicting pain on your friend is what you need to do to win the game, then you will do it within the rules of engagement. In this context, you are not evil.

However, imagine that you you knocked down your friend and they quit, but you refused to stop beating him. Your intention wasn't to win the boxing game; you intended to use boxing as a guise to inflict pain on your friend. In that context, that is evil.

[Scott]

If UFC fights are intentionally targeted at inflicting pain to people, then it is evil.

Interesting. I love boxing with one of my best friends, Mike, as well as other sparring partners. We've both given each other bloody noises and visible bruises plenty of times. The harm we do to each other while boxing is definitely intentional. The whole object of the sport is to break through the opponent's defenses and punch the other person despite them doing their best to stop you. So, to be clear, that means under your definition of evil, my friend Mike and I are both evil; correct?

(Don't worry; I won't be offended by your answer at all, but am just asking to ensure understand your definition of evil correctly.)

Boxing is a sport and there are rules of engagement. You may have believed that your intention was to inflict pain on your friend, but that's not completely true. Your intention is to do what you can to win the game. If inflicting pain on your friend is what you need to do to win the game, then you will do it within the rules of engagement. In this context, you are not evil.

However, imagine that you you knocked down your friend and they quit, but you refused to stop beating him. Your intention wasn't to win the boxing game; you intended to use boxing as a guise to inflict pain on your friend. In that context, that is evil.

So, are you saying that as long as it is means to an end (e.g. the enjoyment of sport), it is not evil to knowing cause harm to someone?


Also, what is your answer to the other questions I asked:

What does it mean for Earth realm to be humanity's domain?

What is the Earth realm?

If we send a spaceship to Mars and build a habitat on Mars for non-human animals, could animals be evil there?

What about if the victim is an animal? Is that evil? If a human intentionally causes harm to an animal is that evil?

I've seen cats torture mice for fun before killing them, and not even eating them, just killing them for fun and leaving the mouse's dead body out in the yard. According to you, that is not evil because the perpetrator is a non-human animal; correct?

Likewise, with your definition, hurricanes are not evil despite causing lots of harm to people can killing many people and children; correct?

Are you sure you use the word "evil" only to mean "a human intentionally causing harm to another human", or is there more to the definition? Is there some other aspect to being "evil"?

If the word 'evil' is just a synonym for "intentionally causing harm to a human" why use the word evil (which might be misunderstood as meaning something else or something more) instead of just saying "intentionally causing harm to a human"?

[jemimapaul]

Yes, I believe that God is all-knowing and all-powerful. He did an amazing job, and not one little speck was out of place when He created the world.

But then sin entered the world. Still the all-loving, all-powerful God exists.

Evil happens to everyone—and to creation itself. The reason? Humanity sinned. We were created as caretakers of this world. When we sinned, we not only condemned ourselves to a harsh life and eventual death, we condemned creation itself.

God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1–6), and He knows the future (Isaiah 46:10). So He definitely knew that Adam and Eve would sin. But He created them anyway and gave them a free will with which they chose to sin.

Reading Scripture carefully, we are led to the following conclusions:

1. The fall of mankind was foreknown by God.
2. The crucifixion of Christ, the atonement for God’s elect, was foreordained by God.
3. All people will one day glorify God (Psalm 86:9), and God purposes “to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ” (Ephesians 1:10).

God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:18–25). The world that best displays the glory of God is the world we have—a world that was allowed to fall, a world that was redeemed, a world that will be restored to its original perfection.

God foresaw Adam and Eve’s fall. He created them anyway, in His own image, to bring glory to Himself. They were given freedom to make choices. Even though they chose to disobey, their choice became the means by which God’s ultimate will was carried out and by which His full glory will be seen. The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in His Son’s words, “Father, forgive them” (Luke 23:34). God’s love and grace are manifest in those whom He has saved (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8–10). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His righteousness results in the eternal punishment of unrepentant sinners (Philippians 2:11). Without the fall of Adam and Eve, we would never know God’s justice, grace, mercy, or love.

Here’s the good news—the gospel. God loved us so much, he became part of his creation and paid the price for our sin, offering us forgiveness if we are willing to accept the Lordship of Jesus over our lives. Evil things will continue to happen to us and to this broken and fallen world. Each evil thing that happens is a reminder of who we have been—and a warning not to turn back to sin. But one day, the Lord will return and this world—including our fallen bodies—will be done away with. He will recreate us in the resurrection and give us a recreated world!

Hi, again, jemimapaul, thank you so much for your thoughtful replies and answers!

The Serenity Prayer means letting go of situations beyond your control and taking action toward things within your control. It also means being able to know when things are within your control and when things are beyond your control.

Yes, even things like cancer and hurricane are evil.

Perhaps we simply use some of the words differently to mean different things. But, to me, as I use the words, if I am negatively judging a hurricane as "evil", I am not fully accepting it.

Moreover, since my time, energy, and resources are all very limited, any time, energy, or resources I waste resenting the hurricane for existing or otherwise behaving unacceptingly towards it, is time, energy, and resources I take away from having the "courage to change the things I can" in the words of the Serenity Prayer.

When God created this beautiful world, He did not intend for evil to be present.

If there is a God, and there are hurricanes, and hurricanes are evil, meaning there 'ought' not be hurricanes, but are hurricanes, to me that means God did a bad job, which seems to be contradictory, assuming we are talking about an all-good all-loving all-powerful all-knowing Creator God at least.

That general concept is typically called the "Problem of Evil" in theology and philosophy, and it is extremely convincing to me.

I believe that, if evil exists (i.e. if unchangeable reality "shouldn't" be the way it unchangeably is), then an all-loving all-powerful god does not exist and cannot exist.

Of course, I don't believe that evil exists, and I don't believe that unchangeable reality 'shouldn't' be the way it unchangeably is (whatever that would mean). In fact, I don't believe in "should nots" or "ought nots" at all. I look at the whole of all creation (i.e. reality as a timeless eternal whole) and I think it is beautiful and perfect and worthy of unconditional acceptance, unconditional forgiveness, and unconditional love.

If there is an all-knowing omnipotent Creator God, then I think he did a great amazing job, and not one little speck is out of place. And that's why I have inner peace: because I look around, and all I see is infinite beauty worthy of infinite love in every direction; nothing real and true is wrong. From my perspective, reality is a perfect harmony. I have invincible consistent inner peace because, from my perspective, reality isn't wrong, ever at all.

But when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, sin and evil came into the world . Thats when sicknesses like cancer and natural disasters like hurricane came into the world.

Do you believe that God is all-knowing and all-powerful?

If so, didn't he know when he created Adam, created Eve, created the tree, and created the snake that it would happen just like that? He could have created them differently to have different results. If A + B + C results in D, then from his perspective before he even creates A or B or C, he knows that A + B + C = D with certainty. So when he chose to create A, B, and C, he thereby was also choosing to create D; right?

There are no unexpected results for an all-knowing all-powerful creator; right?


How do you feel about this image:


all-powerful-all-knowing.jpg


?

[Scott]

Hi, jemimapaul,

Thank you for your reply!

I read your whole post. It was very well written, and it gave me a lot to think about.

Personally, I take most of the stories in the Bible to be metaphorical and/or allegorical, much like Jesus's own parables. For example, I don't think there was literally a real single Good Samaritan that Jesus was telling a story about with that parable. Rather, I think think he was using fictional allegories involving fictional characters to indirectly teach real deeper truths. Likewise, I don't believe there was ever really literally talking snakes or humans on Earth that lived to be over two hundred years old, but we can learn from those stories in the same way we can learn from Jesus's more openly fictional Parables.

With that said, this part of your post especially resonated with me:

The world that best displays the glory of God is the world we have—a world that was allowed to fall, a world that was redeemed, a world that will be restored to its original perfection.

It reminds me of a poem I wrote once, A Dry Life Without Tears.

We cannot reap the benefits of going though what St. John of the Cross called "A Dark Night of the Soul" without the dark.

Light can only shine in darkness. A world with only light would be as dark as a world with no light.

Perhaps, what you call 'evil' is a very good thing, and we would be wise to be grateful it exists.


Thank you for the thought-provoking discussion!

[Julie Gebrosky]

Is it a merely a complete and total lack of love, or is it true hatred, to which you refer?

I’m referring to hatred or actions that are so self-centered that they are past mere apathy because they intentionally go out of their way to cause unnecessary pain or suffering.

Is it only hatred and/or hate-based actions against humans that you consider evil?

What about if a human hates or commits hate-based actions against a non-human victim? For example, what if a person hates cats for some reason and goes around hatefully murdering cats? Is that evil?

What if someones ants and goes around hatefully killing all the ants they can find?

What if someone hates pine trees and goes hatefully killing all the pine trees they can find? Is that evil?

I think you raise some great points. For me it goes back to intent. Generally I do not find actions against animals or plants to be evil. However, it can cross into the realm of evil if it’s an action that is done with malicious intent purely for the sake of being cruel and causing pain. I’m not aware of any evidence that shows plants can feel pain, so they would be excluded. As far as animals, there is definitely evidence they can feel pain. A hunter shooting an animal to eat is not evil because it’s for a greater good (to feed themselves or others). Even sport hunting I don’t see as evil, though it’s not something I choose to do. The intent is to kill, but the purpose is not for causing as much pain as possible. Most of hunting is about killing the animal as quickly as possible to reduce pain for the animal and for practical reasons such as not needing to track the animal down. Torturing any animal (cat, ant, etc.) for no good reason other than because you want to could be classified as evil based on intent. I suppose that goes against my definition, but I think exceptions can be made for overtly intentionally cruel actions.

Can you give a couple specific examples of some things that are evil that exist or happen that are completely out of your control and that you cannot change?

Sure! If there is someone who I don’t know who tortured and kills someone else that I don’t know, I have absolutely no control over that. If someone raped and tortured others that I do not know and have never come into contact with any of the parties involved, that’s still evil that I can’t change because I never even met those people.

Thank you for answer. As a followup to that, I have another question, how do you feel about the concept, principle, and/or of fully and unconditionally accepting that which you cannot control (i.e. that which you cannot change)?

I believe evil exists, and I fully accept that it exists. I wish it didn’t, but it does. I can’t make it disappear, so I accept that it’s just a reality and do my best to avoid it by not being around people who are likely to commit evil acts. The hard part about evil is that it can find you anyway, so I know that avoiding it is likely an impossible task.

[Scott]

I’m referring to hatred or actions that are so self-centered that they are past mere apathy because they intentionally go out of their way to cause unnecessary pain or suffering.

[...]

it can cross into the realm of evil if it’s an action that is done with malicious intent purely for the sake of being cruel and causing pain.

[...]

A hunter shooting an animal to eat is not evil because it’s for a greater good (to feed themselves or others). Even sport hunting I don’t see as evil, though it’s not something I choose to do. The intent is to kill, but the purpose is not for causing as much pain as possible.

[...]

Torturing any animal (cat, ant, etc.) for no good reason other than because you want to could be classified as evil based on intent.

Based on the above, it seems to me that what you are describing (and defining) is sadism. In other words, if I am understanding you correctly, then you believe the words "evil" and "sadistic" are synonymous; Is that a correct understanding?

If I am understanding correctly, you think it is not 'evil' (i.e. sadistic) to cause pain to a victim if it is done as a means to some other end (e.g. earning money to feed one's hungry family), particularly if it is some kind of utilitarian or unselfish end; And, in contrast, you think it is 'evil' (i.e. sadistic) to cause pain to a victim if the reason it is done is because it causes pain and/or is done solely for the pleasure of the one causing the pain to victim; Is that a correct understanding?

I do believe sadism exists. So if you define the word 'evil' as simply 'sadism', meaning you simply use the word 'evil' to refer to 'sadism', then indeed I believe that what you call 'evil' exists. Needless to say, at the same time, I still believe what I call 'evil' does not exist.

Thank you for answer. As a followup to that, I have another question, how do you feel about the concept, principle, and/or habit of fully and unconditionally accepting that which you cannot control (i.e. that which you cannot change)?

I believe evil exists, and I fully accept that it exists. I wish it didn’t, but it does. I can’t make it disappear, so I accept that it’s just a reality and do my best to avoid it by not being around people who are likely to commit evil acts. The hard part about evil is that it can find you anyway, so I know that avoiding it is likely an impossible task.

Wisely said.

I'd say essentially the same thing about hurricanes and tornadoes. They exist, I generally do my best to avoid them, and the hard part is they can find me anyway. They also hurt and kill a lot of people.

As I use the term (i.e. using my different definition of the word 'evil'), I would neither call a hurricane 'evil', nor call a violent sadist or a violent sociopath 'evil'. Accordingly, as I use the term, I don't believe what I call 'evil' exists. In contrast, I do believe what you call 'evil' exists.

In short, I think we agree. We simply use the equivocal word 'evil' differently. In analogy, it's like if you use the word 'desert' to refer to something tasty and cold, but I use the word 'desert' to refer to something sandy and hot. Then, you would rightly say it's true that I ate some desert last night, but I would rightly say that it's not true that I some desert last night, and yet we wouldn't be disagreeing and we would both be right.

That is, of course, assuming I don't have a secret penchant for munching on the Sahara.

[Julie Gebrosky]

Based on the above, it seems to me that what you are describing (and defining) is sadism. In other words, if I am understanding you correctly, then you believe the words "evil" and "sadistic" are synonymous; Is that a correct understanding?

If I am understanding correctly, you think it is not 'evil' (i.e. sadistic) to cause pain to a victim if it is done as a means to some other end (e.g. earning money to feed one's hungry family), particularly if it is some kind of utilitarian or unselfish end; And, in contrast, you think it is 'evil' (i.e. sadistic) to cause pain to a victim if the reason it is done is because it causes pain and/or is done solely for the pleasure of the one causing the pain to victim; Is that a correct understanding?

Yes, that is correct. I would agree they are synonymous.

In short, I think we agree. We simply use the equivocal word 'evil' differently. In analogy, it's like if you use the word 'desert' to refer to something tasty and cold, but I use the word 'desert' to refer to something sandy and hot. Then, you would rightly say it's true that I ate some desert last night, but I would rightly say that it's not true that I some desert last night, and yet we wouldn't be disagreeing and we would both be right.

That is, of course, assuming I don't have a secret penchant for munching on the Sahara.

I agree! Though I did quite enjoy the mental picture of munching on the Sahara.