Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

[Eckhart Aurelius Hughes]

I neither believe in should-ness nor should-not-have-ness. For example, I do not believe either of the following statements is true:

1) "You should drink coffee tomorrow."

2) "You should not drink coffee tomorrow."


To me the following statements are impossible nonsense:

- "That hurricane that happened yesterday should not have happened."

- "That hurricane that happened yesterday ought not have happened."

- "You shouldn't drink coffee."

- "You should drink coffee."



After reading my book, most people agree with my view. But, before reading my book, most do not agree.

For those who don't, I'm especially surprised when I find out they do believe in an all-powerful creator god.

It's one thing for an atheist to honestly say, "If the world was created by a god, that god did a bad job. He should have made the world differently!" I don't agree, but it's consistent.

But what I find inconsistent is when people who believe in a creator god accept the aforementioned atheist's premise instead of accepting my counter view that the world (a.k.a. "Creation") is perfect (i.e. that nothing should be different than it is).

As I see it, to believe in an all-powerful God and think should-not-have-ness exists is to therefore believe that God did a bad job. Or to believe he's just mean and hateful and nasty and such. Or stupid.

In contrast, since I don't believe in should-not-have-ness, it means I look around at the world and to me the world as a timeless 4D whole is perfect. To me, not a single spec is out of place. Unlike most people (i.e. anyone who believes should-not-have-ness exists), to me, when I look out at the world, I conclude that if it was made by an all-powerful God then that God is all-loving and did a wonderful great perfect job, and deserves infinite thanks, because there is nothing that should not be exactly as it is.

I know there isn't a nasty, stupid, mean, or unloving God because I see the perfection of the world. I know that if there is a God that God must be all-loving and perfect and wonderful and worthy of infinite love because this world is.

But those who think the world should be different than it unchangeably is have an opposite view to me: They therefore think that if there is a creator God, that God did a bad job. They say, "Creation should be different than it unchangeably is!"

With their judgementalism and hate, be it towards anything or anyone at all, they thereby curse and sneer at any creator God. "You did a bad job," they say to him. "Your creation should be different than how you created it," they say.


What do you think?

all-powerful-all-knowing.jpg (260.91 KiB) Viewed 5620 times

[Surabhi Rani]

There is no anarchy in this world. Everything happening is a fair play of karma in this scheme of the cosmos. Food for thought! Is it the divine sovereignty prevailing in the world? Food for thought! It rejuvenates the good impressions within me and equips me with a new, positive, and optimistic approach and outlook toward life.

[Elizabeth Atieno 7]

The idea that an all-powerful God and the existence of "should-not-have-ness" imply God did a bad job is a perspective influenced by theodicy, which explores the problem of evil in the context of a benevolent, omnipotent deity. Different religious and philosophical traditions offer diverse perspectives on this complex issue.

[Gladis Ratish Kumar]

I hold the conviction that an omnipotent God exists, and the concept of 'should-not-have-ness' is nonexistent. My belief stems from the understanding that God operates distinctly, and anything that appears adverse will ultimately unfold for the better, provided we possess the patience to endure. Therefore, I agree with your viewpoint that those who affirm the existence of an all-powerful God and also acknowledge the concept of "should-not-have-ness" essentially suggest that God did a bad job.

[Vane Manyenga]

Others posit that what may seem imperfect to humans is part of a grander divine plan beyond human comprehension. The debate revolves around reconciling the omnipotence of God with the existence of what may be perceived as "should-not-have-ness." Different religious traditions offer diverse perspectives on this intricate relationship between God's power and the perceived imperfections in the world.

[Judith Bogonko]

While some may advocate for acceptance of the unchangeable aspects of our world, others might seek to challenge the status quo in pursuit of progress or justice. Engaging in open dialogue can foster a deeper appreciation for the myriad perspectives that shape our understanding of the world, ultimately contributing to a more inclusive and interconnected global community.

[Magrine Moegi]

Theodicy, the study of why a benevolent and all-powerful God allows evil or suffering, explores these questions. Various religious traditions offer different explanations, such as the idea that challenges serve a higher purpose or that humans are responsible for introducing imperfections through free will.

[Sushan]

The reflections you've shared on the world's perfection, the inconsistency of believers criticizing creation, and the philosophical stance on divine perfection present a thought-provoking viewpoint. However, I find myself contemplating a slightly different perspective on these matters.

Regarding the perception of the world as a perfect creation, it's essential to consider that the concept of perfection is deeply subjective and varies widely across cultures, philosophies, and individuals. While the idea of a world where every speck is in its rightful place offers a comforting vision of divine omnipotence and benevolence, it might also be worth considering the dynamic nature of creation itself. Could not the world's constant state of flux, its capacity for change and evolution, also be seen as a form of perfection? This perspective suggests that perfection includes the potential for growth, learning, and improvement, aligning with a more process-oriented view of the divine and creation.

On the inconsistency in believers' criticisms of the world, it's conceivable that expressing desires for a different world doesn't necessarily imply a belief that God did a bad job. Instead, it could reflect a deep engagement with the divine gift of free will and the responsibility it entails. Such criticisms might arise from a place of compassion and a desire to alleviate suffering, rather than from a lack of faith or ingratitude towards creation. This view posits that humans, created in the image of a thoughtful and caring God, are naturally inclined to seek justice and goodness, which sometimes requires envisioning and striving for a world that better reflects these divine attributes.

Lastly, the discussion on the philosophical implications for theism and atheism opens up an essential dialogue on the nature of belief and understanding. While it's valuable to challenge inconsistencies in beliefs, it's also crucial to acknowledge the complexity of human experience and the mystery that surrounds the divine. Faith and doubt are not always opposites but can coexist as part of a deeper exploration of one's relationship with the divine and the world. This nuanced approach allows for a belief in a perfect, all-loving God while also engaging critically with the realities of suffering and injustice, seeing them as calls to action rather than signs of divine imperfection or malice.

[Ajain12]

This statement reflects a particular perspective on the nature of God and the existence of suffering or imperfection in the world. It suggests that if one believes in an all-powerful God who allows or creates imperfections, it implies a failure or inadequacy on God's part. However, interpretations of God's omnipotence and the presence of suffering vary among religious and philosophical traditions. Some argue that suffering serves a greater purpose or is beyond human comprehension, while others question the compatibility of an all-powerful, benevolent deity with the existence of suffering. Ultimately, beliefs about God's role in the world's imperfections are deeply personal and subject to individual interpretation.

[Eckhart Aurelius Hughes]

This statement reflects a particular perspective on the nature of God and the existence of suffering or imperfection in the world. It suggests that if one believes in an all-powerful God who allows or creates imperfections, it implies a failure or inadequacy on God's part. However, interpretations of God's omnipotence and the presence of suffering vary among religious and philosophical traditions. Some argue that suffering serves a greater purpose or is beyond human comprehension, while others question the compatibility of an all-powerful, benevolent deity with the existence of suffering. Ultimately, beliefs about God's role in the world's imperfections are deeply personal and subject to individual interpretation.

What's your point, though?

It almost seems like you put my OP into a chatbot (e.g. ChatGPT), and then posted its summary of what I said as a reply. Is that what you did?

[Christabel nmeso]

I totally get why that sentence would spark a disagreement. It challenges a core belief about divine perfection and the nature of existence. I guess it's like saying everything, including what we perceive as 'bad,' has its place in the grand scheme. It's a perspective that really makes you think about the bigger picture and our understanding of 'should' and 'should not.'

[Onyinyechi Obi]

I do not believe in this statement. However just like you said a lot of people had same doubt till the read your book. I’m currently reading now I hope my doubt is cleared

[Eckhart Aurelius Hughes]

Since I don't believe in should-not-have-ness, it means I look around at the world and to me the world as a timeless 4D whole is perfect. To me, not a single spec is out of place. Unlike most people (i.e. anyone who believes should-not-have-ness exists), to me, when I look out at the world, I conclude that if it was made by an all-powerful God then that God is all-loving and did a wonderful great perfect job, and deserves infinite thanks, because there is nothing that should not be exactly as it is.

[...]

But those who think the world should be different than it unchangeably is have an opposite view to me: They therefore think that if there is a creator God, that God did a bad job. They say, "Creation should be different than it unchangeably is!"

With their judgementalism and hate, be it towards anything or anyone at all, they thereby curse and sneer at any creator God. "You did a bad job," they say to him. "Your creation should be different than how you created it," they say.

I do not believe in this statement. However just like you said a lot of people had same doubt till the read your book. I’m currently reading now I hope my doubt is cleared

Hi, Onyinyechi Obi,

Thank you for your reply and comments! Please do let me know what you think about this subject after reading the book. It will be interesting to see if the book changes your view on this and if so in what ways. Either way, I look forward to the discussion. I love learning about different perspectives.


With love,
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
a.k.a. Scott

[Kaitlin Bryant]

I neither believe in should-ness nor should-not-have-ness. For example, I do not believe either of the following statements is true:

1) "You should drink coffee tomorrow."

2) "You should not drink coffee tomorrow."


To me the following statements are impossible nonsense:

- "That hurricane that happened yesterday should not have happened."

- "That hurricane that happened yesterday ought not have happened."

- "You shouldn't drink coffee."

- "You should drink coffee."



After reading my book, most people agree with my view. But, before reading my book, most do not agree.

For those who don't, I'm especially surprised when I find out they do believe in an all-powerful creator god.

It's one thing for an atheist to honestly say, "If the world was created by a god, that god did a bad job. He should have made the world differently!" I don't agree, but it's consistent.

But what I find inconsistent is when people who believe in a creator god accept the aforementioned atheist's premise instead of accepting my counter view that the world (a.k.a. "Creation") is perfect (i.e. that nothing should be different than it is).

As I see it, to believe in an all-powerful God and think should-not-have-ness exists is to therefore believe that God did a bad job. Or to believe he's just mean and hateful and nasty and such. Or stupid.

In contrast, since I don't believe in should-not-have-ness, it means I look around at the world and to me the world as a timeless 4D whole is perfect. To me, not a single spec is out of place. Unlike most people (i.e. anyone who believes should-not-have-ness exists), to me, when I look out at the world, I conclude that if it was made by an all-powerful God then that God is all-loving and did a wonderful great perfect job, and deserves infinite thanks, because there is nothing that should not be exactly as it is.

I know there isn't a nasty, stupid, mean, or unloving God because I see the perfection of the world. I know that if there is a God that God must be all-loving and perfect and wonderful and worthy of infinite love because this world is.

But those who think the world should be different than it unchangeably is have an opposite view to me: They therefore think that if there is a creator God, that God did a bad job. They say, "Creation should be different than it unchangeably is!"

With their judgementalism and hate, be it towards anything or anyone at all, they thereby curse and sneer at any creator God. "You did a bad job," they say to him. "Your creation should be different than how you created it," they say.


What do you think?




all-powerful-all-knowing.jpg

So as a Christian, I can see what you are saying here.
God's plan is perfect and therefore even that bad that happens in this world serves God's plan. Therefore, to say something "should not have happened." Would be saying that God's plan "should have happened differently."

This verse really speaks to what you are saying:
Jeremiah 29:11
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

So even the bad happening is God's plan. While we may not understand why things are happening we should trust in God's good plan.

[Ije Bons]

I agree with you and I think that the world is perfect. God created everything perfectly and I love that.