Morality or selfishness?

Use this forum to discuss the January 2023 Philosophy Book of the MonthEntanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger
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Sushan
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Morality or selfishness?

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This topic is about the January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month, Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger

She would love to feel his body next to hers. She would love his hands all over her body. She had lost all need to use the toilet. She felt only the tingling electric greatness of a sexual yearning she had never felt, never allowed herself to feel. And she wanted to feel it. But she had to protect him from her dirty past; she couldn’t tell him about her herpes. Not now. Not ever. He was leaving tomorrow. What a horrible gift to attach to him and to send home with him to his love. He would hate her forever.
(Location 332 - Kindle Version)

A prostitute suddenly feels bad for the potential risk of her partner getting a STD from her, simply because he cares for her. But in the past she has slept with countless men and sent them home to their wives, probably with her illness.

Can this be an act of 'new-found' morality? Or is it merely a selfish thought? Or is it a way of repaying? What are your thoughts on this dilemma?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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LuckyR
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Re: Morality or selfishness?

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: January 7th, 2023, 11:25 am This topic is about the January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month, Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger

She would love to feel his body next to hers. She would love his hands all over her body. She had lost all need to use the toilet. She felt only the tingling electric greatness of a sexual yearning she had never felt, never allowed herself to feel. And she wanted to feel it. But she had to protect him from her dirty past; she couldn’t tell him about her herpes. Not now. Not ever. He was leaving tomorrow. What a horrible gift to attach to him and to send home with him to his love. He would hate her forever.
(Location 332 - Kindle Version)

A prostitute suddenly feels bad for the potential risk of her partner getting a STD from her, simply because he cares for her. But in the past she has slept with countless men and sent them home to their wives, probably with her illness.

Can this be an act of 'new-found' morality? Or is it merely a selfish thought? Or is it a way of repaying? What are your thoughts on this dilemma?
Well let's be clear about what is happening, then an accurate evaluation can be made. What's going on is a momentary lapse in a previous rationalization of an unethical choice in behavior.

In order to put this lapse into correct perspective, we have to know if this change is a one-off (based on the status of the object) or if it represents a new adherance to previously ignored ethical standards.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sushan
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Re: Morality or selfishness?

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: January 8th, 2023, 4:53 pm
Sushan wrote: January 7th, 2023, 11:25 am This topic is about the January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month, Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger

She would love to feel his body next to hers. She would love his hands all over her body. She had lost all need to use the toilet. She felt only the tingling electric greatness of a sexual yearning she had never felt, never allowed herself to feel. And she wanted to feel it. But she had to protect him from her dirty past; she couldn’t tell him about her herpes. Not now. Not ever. He was leaving tomorrow. What a horrible gift to attach to him and to send home with him to his love. He would hate her forever.
(Location 332 - Kindle Version)

A prostitute suddenly feels bad for the potential risk of her partner getting a STD from her, simply because he cares for her. But in the past she has slept with countless men and sent them home to their wives, probably with her illness.

Can this be an act of 'new-found' morality? Or is it merely a selfish thought? Or is it a way of repaying? What are your thoughts on this dilemma?
Well let's be clear about what is happening, then an accurate evaluation can be made. What's going on is a momentary lapse in a previous rationalization of an unethical choice in behavior.

In order to put this lapse into correct perspective, we have to know if this change is a one-off (based on the status of the object) or if it represents a new adherance to previously ignored ethical standards.
Well, she stopped being a prostitute later, but it was not because of this particular incident. She was treated well by a man for the first time in her life and she felt some gratitude towards that particular man. So she did not want to repay him with Herpes. I think that goes towards selfishness.

Yet, she thought about that man's actual fiancee as well, towards whom she had no connection. And I think I have to give a point to the prostitute for morality as well. But if she only thought about the possibility of being the subject of his hatred, then again it goes towards selfishness. 🤔
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Morality or selfishness?

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: January 8th, 2023, 9:29 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 8th, 2023, 4:53 pm
Sushan wrote: January 7th, 2023, 11:25 am This topic is about the January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month, Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger

She would love to feel his body next to hers. She would love his hands all over her body. She had lost all need to use the toilet. She felt only the tingling electric greatness of a sexual yearning she had never felt, never allowed herself to feel. And she wanted to feel it. But she had to protect him from her dirty past; she couldn’t tell him about her herpes. Not now. Not ever. He was leaving tomorrow. What a horrible gift to attach to him and to send home with him to his love. He would hate her forever.
(Location 332 - Kindle Version)

A prostitute suddenly feels bad for the potential risk of her partner getting a STD from her, simply because he cares for her. But in the past she has slept with countless men and sent them home to their wives, probably with her illness.

Can this be an act of 'new-found' morality? Or is it merely a selfish thought? Or is it a way of repaying? What are your thoughts on this dilemma?
Well let's be clear about what is happening, then an accurate evaluation can be made. What's going on is a momentary lapse in a previous rationalization of an unethical choice in behavior.

In order to put this lapse into correct perspective, we have to know if this change is a one-off (based on the status of the object) or if it represents a new adherance to previously ignored ethical standards.
Well, she stopped being a prostitute later, but it was not because of this particular incident. She was treated well by a man for the first time in her life and she felt some gratitude towards that particular man. So she did not want to repay him with Herpes. I think that goes towards selfishness.

Yet, she thought about that man's actual fiancee as well, towards whom she had no connection. And I think I have to give a point to the prostitute for morality as well. But if she only thought about the possibility of being the subject of his hatred, then again it goes towards selfishness. 🤔
Ok, then it was a one-off, based on her atypical feelings to this one guy. I'll give her a point, but only one.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Morality or selfishness?

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LuckyR wrote: January 9th, 2023, 4:38 am
Sushan wrote: January 8th, 2023, 9:29 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 8th, 2023, 4:53 pm
Sushan wrote: January 7th, 2023, 11:25 am This topic is about the January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month, Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger


(Location 332 - Kindle Version)

A prostitute suddenly feels bad for the potential risk of her partner getting a STD from her, simply because he cares for her. But in the past she has slept with countless men and sent them home to their wives, probably with her illness.

Can this be an act of 'new-found' morality? Or is it merely a selfish thought? Or is it a way of repaying? What are your thoughts on this dilemma?
Well let's be clear about what is happening, then an accurate evaluation can be made. What's going on is a momentary lapse in a previous rationalization of an unethical choice in behavior.

In order to put this lapse into correct perspective, we have to know if this change is a one-off (based on the status of the object) or if it represents a new adherance to previously ignored ethical standards.
Well, she stopped being a prostitute later, but it was not because of this particular incident. She was treated well by a man for the first time in her life and she felt some gratitude towards that particular man. So she did not want to repay him with Herpes. I think that goes towards selfishness.

Yet, she thought about that man's actual fiancee as well, towards whom she had no connection. And I think I have to give a point to the prostitute for morality as well. But if she only thought about the possibility of being the subject of his hatred, then again it goes towards selfishness. 🤔
Ok, then it was a one-off, based on her atypical feelings to this one guy. I'll give her a point, but only one.
So towards which side of her that you are granting a point; her selfishness or her morality? Why? :?:
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Morality or selfishness?

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: January 13th, 2023, 6:51 am
LuckyR wrote: January 9th, 2023, 4:38 am
Sushan wrote: January 8th, 2023, 9:29 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 8th, 2023, 4:53 pm

Well let's be clear about what is happening, then an accurate evaluation can be made. What's going on is a momentary lapse in a previous rationalization of an unethical choice in behavior.

In order to put this lapse into correct perspective, we have to know if this change is a one-off (based on the status of the object) or if it represents a new adherance to previously ignored ethical standards.
Well, she stopped being a prostitute later, but it was not because of this particular incident. She was treated well by a man for the first time in her life and she felt some gratitude towards that particular man. So she did not want to repay him with Herpes. I think that goes towards selfishness.

Yet, she thought about that man's actual fiancee as well, towards whom she had no connection. And I think I have to give a point to the prostitute for morality as well. But if she only thought about the possibility of being the subject of his hatred, then again it goes towards selfishness. 🤔
Ok, then it was a one-off, based on her atypical feelings to this one guy. I'll give her a point, but only one.
So towards which side of her that you are granting a point; her selfishness or her morality? Why? :?:
Her morality. But one moral act in a career of immorality is the reason for the single point.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Morality or selfishness?

Post by Webco1577 »

As I've often told my children, "Every one makes mistakes. It's what you do after that mistake that makes a difference." I have started the book, and have read the section quoted. I have gotten a chuckle out of the conversation above, but I think that I must call it a one-off for morality against her history......so far. I am going to wait to see where she goes from here. She has made a step in the right direction but I have a lot of book left to read and only the author can tell me which way she will go.
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Re: Morality or selfishness?

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: January 16th, 2023, 3:27 am
Sushan wrote: January 13th, 2023, 6:51 am
LuckyR wrote: January 9th, 2023, 4:38 am
Sushan wrote: January 8th, 2023, 9:29 pm

Well, she stopped being a prostitute later, but it was not because of this particular incident. She was treated well by a man for the first time in her life and she felt some gratitude towards that particular man. So she did not want to repay him with Herpes. I think that goes towards selfishness.

Yet, she thought about that man's actual fiancee as well, towards whom she had no connection. And I think I have to give a point to the prostitute for morality as well. But if she only thought about the possibility of being the subject of his hatred, then again it goes towards selfishness. 🤔
Ok, then it was a one-off, based on her atypical feelings to this one guy. I'll give her a point, but only one.
So towards which side of her that you are granting a point; her selfishness or her morality? Why? :?:
Her morality. But one moral act in a career of immorality is the reason for the single point.
But she had thoughts of being at the receiving end of his hatred, and avoiding that was among the reasons for her restraint. Why should we put that towards morality since she clearly had selfish thoughts?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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Re: Morality or selfishness?

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Webco1577 wrote: January 19th, 2023, 9:23 pm As I've often told my children, "Every one makes mistakes. It's what you do after that mistake that makes a difference." I have started the book, and have read the section quoted. I have gotten a chuckle out of the conversation above, but I think that I must call it a one-off for morality against her history......so far. I am going to wait to see where she goes from here. She has made a step in the right direction but I have a lot of book left to read and only the author can tell me which way she will go.
Well, you have a point. Since this is fiction it is up to the author to fabricate his characters. And being immoral for the most of the life does not make anyone to unable to be moral for atleast once. But here she liked that guy and was afraid of letting him know her true past. Wasn't that selfish instead of being moral?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Morality or selfishness?

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She did eventually stop being a prostitute, but not because of this specific incident. For the first time in her life, a man treated her properly, and she was somewhat appreciative of him. She did not want to give him Herpes in return. That, in my opinion, is selfish.
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Re: Morality or selfishness?

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Sushan wrote: January 7th, 2023, 11:25 amWhat are your thoughts on this dilemma?
It is a false dilemma.
  • "Adam Smith's contrast between self-interested market behavior on the one hand and altruistic, benevolent behavior on the other, obscures from view just those types of activity in which the goods to be achieved are neither mine-rather-than-others' nor others'-rather-than-mine, but instead are goods that can only be mine insofar as they are also those of others, that are genuinely common goods, as the goods of networks of giving and receiving are. But if we need to act for the sake of such common goods, in order to achieve our flourishing as rational animals, then we also need to have transformed our initial desires in a way that enables us to recognize the inadequacy of any simple classification of desires as either egoistic or altruistic. The limitations and blindnesses of merely self-interested desire have been catalogued often enough. Those of a blandly generalized benevolence have received too little attention. What such benevolence presents us with is a generalized Other-one whose only relationship to us is to provide an occasion for the exercise of our benevolence, so that we can reassure ourselves about our own good will-in place of those particular others with whom we must learn to share common goods, and participate in ongoing relationships. What are the qualities needed for such participation? To ask this question returns us to the discussion of the virtues and why they are needed."
  • -Alasdair MacIntyre, Dependent Rational Animals, p. 119
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Re: Morality or selfishness?

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Nletachi Otuokere wrote: May 6th, 2023, 5:48 pm She did eventually stop being a prostitute, but not because of this specific incident. For the first time in her life, a man treated her properly, and she was somewhat appreciative of him. She did not want to give him Herpes in return. That, in my opinion, is selfish.
It seems you're proposing that her desire to protect this man from her sexually transmitted disease is rooted in selfishness, perhaps because she values the unique respect and care he has shown her and wishes to maintain that positive regard. However, I believe the situation might be more complex and nuanced.

It's important to remember that morality is often a subjective, multifaceted construct. The prostitute's actions and thoughts can be seen from different perspectives. The fact that she's considering the potential harm she might cause to this man could indeed be a manifestation of a 'new-found' morality, a shift in her ethical compass prompted by a novel experience of being treated with kindness and respect.

However, labeling this as purely selfish might be an oversimplification. Selfishness implies concern only for one's own interests and advantages, typically with disregard for others. In this case, while she does seem to be concerned about preserving the unique bond she's formed with this man, she's also explicitly worried about his wellbeing. This indicates a level of empathy and compassion that goes beyond pure self-interest.

In addition, her decision to protect him from her past could be interpreted as an act of repentance, a way of atoning for her past actions. Through refraining from infecting him, she could be attempting to break the cycle of harm she has been a part of.
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Re: Morality or selfishness?

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Leontiskos wrote: May 8th, 2023, 12:44 am
Sushan wrote: January 7th, 2023, 11:25 amWhat are your thoughts on this dilemma?
It is a false dilemma.
  • "Adam Smith's contrast between self-interested market behavior on the one hand and altruistic, benevolent behavior on the other, obscures from view just those types of activity in which the goods to be achieved are neither mine-rather-than-others' nor others'-rather-than-mine, but instead are goods that can only be mine insofar as they are also those of others, that are genuinely common goods, as the goods of networks of giving and receiving are. But if we need to act for the sake of such common goods, in order to achieve our flourishing as rational animals, then we also need to have transformed our initial desires in a way that enables us to recognize the inadequacy of any simple classification of desires as either egoistic or altruistic. The limitations and blindnesses of merely self-interested desire have been catalogued often enough. Those of a blandly generalized benevolence have received too little attention. What such benevolence presents us with is a generalized Other-one whose only relationship to us is to provide an occasion for the exercise of our benevolence, so that we can reassure ourselves about our own good will-in place of those particular others with whom we must learn to share common goods, and participate in ongoing relationships. What are the qualities needed for such participation? To ask this question returns us to the discussion of the virtues and why they are needed."
  • -Alasdair MacIntyre, Dependent Rational Animals, p. 119
The quote you've provided from Alasdair MacIntyre's "Dependent Rational Animals" challenges the traditional dichotomy between self-interest and altruism, suggesting that human behavior is often driven by the pursuit of common goods — outcomes that are beneficial for both the individual and others. This perspective is a compelling way to look at the dilemma presented in the narrative.

In the case of the prostitute, her concern for the man's wellbeing and her reluctance to infect him with her illness could be viewed not as an act of self-interest or altruism, but rather as a pursuit of a common good. This common good could be the maintenance of their relationship, the man's health, or the preservation of his perception of her.

By refraining from revealing her illness and potentially transmitting it to him, she secures a good that benefits both of them: he remains uninfected, and she maintains the bond they've formed. This is consistent with MacIntyre's view that there are goods that "can only be mine insofar as they are also those of others."

However, this perspective also raises further questions. For instance, does pursuing a common good in this situation justify her withholding the truth about her condition? Would a more complete realization of the common good involve open communication, even if it potentially threatens their relationship?

Additionally, MacIntyre’s insight about the “blandly generalized benevolence” versus the need to share common goods with “particular others” might prompt us to consider whether the prostitute's actions are influenced by her unique relationship with this man, rather than a generalized sense of benevolence towards all her clients.

By looking at the situation through the lens of common goods, we avoid reducing the prostitute's actions to mere self-interest or altruism, and open up a space for a more nuanced understanding of her motivations and moral dilemmas.

Your thoughts on this would be most enlightening. How do you see the concept of common goods applying to this situation? How does it challenge or enhance your initial understanding of the narrative?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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Re: Morality or selfishness?

Post by Bright U »

I believe its absolutely moral to turn away from her life of prostitution following the good treatment she received from the man. Choosing to not give him herpes has to be the most selfless act I read about in the book. She wasn't after just her sexual satisfaction. She wanted to make sure this man that treated her so well was good too.
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Re: Morality or selfishness?

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Bright U wrote: May 25th, 2023, 1:16 am I believe its absolutely moral to turn away from her life of prostitution following the good treatment she received from the man. Choosing to not give him herpes has to be the most selfless act I read about in the book. She wasn't after just her sexual satisfaction. She wanted to make sure this man that treated her so well was good too.
I appreciate your perspective and you make a compelling point about her intentions. However, I would also argue that morality is not just about individual acts, but about consistency and principles. If her decision to protect this man is indeed a moral one, it begs the question: why did she not extend the same consideration to the others she encountered in her past?

It seems that her decision is based more on her personal feelings towards this man, who treated her well, rather than a broad, moral principle of not causing harm to others. This could indicate that her decision is less about morality in the abstract sense, and more about a personal, emotional response.

That said, this could indeed be the start of a 'new-found' morality, as you put it. People's moral compasses can shift over time, often triggered by impactful experiences or relationships. This man's kindness could have been such a trigger for her, making her reconsider her actions and their consequences.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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