The January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month is Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger.

Do justifiable crimes exist?

Use this forum to discuss the January 2023 Philosophy Book of the MonthEntanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 1386
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by Sushan »

This topic is about the January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month, Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger


Entanglement – Quantum And Otherwise is a dark and guilt-ridden comment on the human condition disguised as a literary crime fiction novel, suggestive of Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment, but more concise and less boring.
(John K Danenbarger)

...certain crimes are justifiable if they are committed in order to remove obstacles to the higher goals of 'extraordinary' men.
(Crime and Punishment - Wikipidea)


Can we justify crimes if the ultimate aim was extraordinary? Will a crime be a 'non-crime' if it was used to exert justice?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
alana
New Trial Member
Posts: 1
Joined: January 13th, 2023, 11:58 pm

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by alana »

There's this acceptance of crimes which are done to protect ourselves or someone and even something. Private Defence is a way people remove themselves from liability in courts.
User avatar
Kamizan
Posts: 7
Joined: January 7th, 2023, 4:43 pm

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by Kamizan »

You quote Dostoyevski but don’t seem to be aware that Crime and Punishment, and Notes from the Underground, are both attacks on the utilitarian thought which makes this question appear rationally plausible, but which is actually monstrous, as the monstrous behaviour of the Underground Man and Raskolnikov demonstrate.
User avatar
Baby Augustine
Posts: 20
Joined: November 24th, 2022, 10:30 am

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by Baby Augustine »

I think you refer to what is treated in Sophocles play Antigone
Creon issued a law that would prevent their brother from getting a proper burial, and anyone who does bury the body will be stoned to death. Antigone, who feels she must bury her dead brother under Divine law, decides to bury him without Ismene's help.
GE Morton
Posts: 4496
Joined: February 1st, 2017, 1:06 am

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by GE Morton »

Sushan wrote: January 13th, 2023, 4:59 pm
Can we justify crimes if the ultimate aim was extraordinary? Will a crime be a 'non-crime' if it was used to exert justice?
Well, first, what counts as "extraordinary"? Secondly, acts which would be criminal when not justified, i.e., killing a person in self-defense, are not crimes.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 5792
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sushan wrote: January 13th, 2023, 4:59 pm
John K Danenbarger wrote:...certain crimes are justifiable if they are committed in order to remove obstacles to the higher goals of 'extraordinary' men.
(Crime and Punishment - Wikipidea)


Can we justify crimes if the ultimate aim was extraordinary? Will a crime be a 'non-crime' if it was used to exert justice?
In my opinion — and I think it must be a mere opinion, as I see this as a moral question —

IF ((Action = NOT(UnJust) AND (HarmDoneByAction = NONE)) THEN (Action IS_NOT_A Crime).

Obviously, this is dependent on what we understand by "just" or "unjust" (and how we see 'harm')...
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Moreno
Posts: 125
Joined: December 13th, 2011, 7:23 pm

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by Moreno »

Sushan wrote: January 13th, 2023, 4:59 pm Can we justify crimes if the ultimate aim was extraordinary? Will a crime be a 'non-crime' if it was used to exert justice?
I don't think it needs to even be extrodinary. A little kid runs out in the street. So, you run out after, jaywalking (which is a minor crime) and pull the kid off the street.

You can argue this in court (my first example never making it to court) and it would be a necessity defense.

Helping runaway slaves looks peachy in hindsight (and to many at the time).

There can be cases where some think it was wrong despite the intentions. And others think it was justified.

Dostoyevsky was not argument that Raskolnikov's actions were justified, though the quote was.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 5920
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by Sculptor1 »

There was a case in the British News about 35 years ago.

A couple of men were on trial because they had sprung a guy out of gaol. Clearly assisting a prison break is illegal.
The judge completely acquitted them on the grounds that the man they freed was later found innocent of the crime he was incarcerated for.

There crime was justified on grounds of truth. Sorry cant find he details.

The case of the Tolpuddle Martyrs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolpuddle ... sentencing
1834.
6 men who had formed a union were transported to Australia for "swearing an illegal oath" to join a Friendly Society in protest refusing to accept a pay cut from 10s to 7s per week.
They spent 3 plus years at hard labour on the other side of the world. Yet after mass protests and 800k (an incredible figure for the time) signatures were eventually pardoned and returned to England.

Where there are unjust laws there are justifiable crimes.
User avatar
Unique
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: January 16th, 2023, 1:21 am

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by Unique »

When we talk about justifiable crimes, I think there is something as justifiable crimes. When an action is taken on the grounds of self-defense to protect oneself against dangers, even if such actions are crimes, I think to a point it is justifiable.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 5792
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Unique wrote: January 16th, 2023, 1:28 am When we talk about justifiable crimes, I think there is something as justifiable crimes. When an action is taken on the grounds of self-defense to protect oneself against dangers, even if such actions are crimes, I think to a point it is justifiable.
I think this is just a matter of how we use the word. I would say that if an action is justifiable, it isn't a crime. But I see the point you're making, and the way you are using "crime", and I agree with what you're saying.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 1386
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by Sushan »

alana wrote: January 14th, 2023, 12:04 am There's this acceptance of crimes which are done to protect ourselves or someone and even something. Private Defence is a way people remove themselves from liability in courts.
I agree with you. But the resistance that was exerted should have been proportionate to the threat. You cannot kill a man who hit you with his weak bare hands and say that was for self-defence. This 'self-defence' thing should be thoroughly examined before coming to a conclusion.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 1386
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by Sushan »

Kamizan wrote: January 14th, 2023, 8:13 am You quote Dostoyevski but don’t seem to be aware that Crime and Punishment, and Notes from the Underground, are both attacks on the utilitarian thought which makes this question appear rationally plausible, but which is actually monstrous, as the monstrous behaviour of the Underground Man and Raskolnikov demonstrate.
When the socio-political background of the author is considered, what you mentioned has a great value. And thank you for pointing that out. But I saw the punishment being an imprisonment for several years for a murder just because the murderer confessed. So what has to be taken from that part? Is it to say that one can be forgiven if that one was honest?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 1386
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by Sushan »

Baby Augustine wrote: January 14th, 2023, 5:50 pm I think you refer to what is treated in Sophocles play Antigone
Creon issued a law that would prevent their brother from getting a proper burial, and anyone who does bury the body will be stoned to death. Antigone, who feels she must bury her dead brother under Divine law, decides to bury him without Ismene's help.
Thank you for mentioning the play. It is quite a controversial as well as confusing story. Antigone was deemed guilty by a rule that was made by a king, a human being. When we look at her crime (as the play says) it has done no harm to the society or herself. So it is questionable whether it is a actual crime. Seemingly the king had some selfish thoughts when he made that rule.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 1386
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by Sushan »

GE Morton wrote: January 14th, 2023, 7:49 pm
Sushan wrote: January 13th, 2023, 4:59 pm
Can we justify crimes if the ultimate aim was extraordinary? Will a crime be a 'non-crime' if it was used to exert justice?
Well, first, what counts as "extraordinary"? Secondly, acts which would be criminal when not justified, i.e., killing a person in self-defense, are not crimes.
If someone decides to time travel and kill Hitler, the act would be an extraordinary one. But no one will know that it is extraordinary since the world will never know the harm that the victim ccould have done. Ultimately it will end up as just another murder. And if I go further deep in this dilemma that I made, if the killer was a person who caught in the holocaust, then his/her action would have been an act of self-defence 8)
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
User avatar
Sushan
Book of the Month Discussion Leader
Posts: 1386
Joined: February 19th, 2021, 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Do justifiable crimes exist?

Post by Sushan »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 15th, 2023, 9:25 am
Sushan wrote: January 13th, 2023, 4:59 pm
John K Danenbarger wrote:...certain crimes are justifiable if they are committed in order to remove obstacles to the higher goals of 'extraordinary' men.
(Crime and Punishment - Wikipidea)


Can we justify crimes if the ultimate aim was extraordinary? Will a crime be a 'non-crime' if it was used to exert justice?
In my opinion — and I think it must be a mere opinion, as I see this as a moral question —

IF ((Action = NOT(UnJust) AND (HarmDoneByAction = NONE)) THEN (Action IS_NOT_A Crime).

Obviously, this is dependent on what we understand by "just" or "unjust" (and how we see 'harm')...
Seems like you are a computer programmer. :roll:

Let's take a robbery as an example. The victim is being harmed and the act is unjust. So the victim gets the right to go to courts seeking justice.

Let's take an incident in which a beggar is being killed by someone. The beggar had no family and no one else was harmed by the action. Whether the action was just or unjust remains as a question. But the state will file a case and look for the murderer since the action is taken as an act against the government.

Law and legal jurisdiction is very much complex and confusing.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
Post Reply

Return to “Discuss "Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise" by John K Danenbarger”

2023 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021