The January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month is Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger.

Murder without guilt

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Sushan
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Murder without guilt

Post by Sushan »

This topic is about the January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month, Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger



Since there are few topics in this forum in relation to murder, morality, selfishness, etc. I had a thought on asking this unusual question. Please do not be bothered by my dark thoughts (you always have the choice to just ignore the topic) and I am extremely sorry if this question makes you uncomfortable?

What will be the best reason for you to think of to get ridden from the guilty feelings if you are to (or had already) commit murder? In other words, killing what sort of a human being will let you be in peace (or with the least amount of guilt)?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
Mercury
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by Mercury »

I do not think murder is morally permissible, and therefore must carry the appropriate burden of guilt - and it is a heavy burden. You do not kill an individual, but the struggles of their ancestors, to survive, to breed, to bring future generations into the world to give life to the person you deprived of life. You also murder all future generations to whom this person may have given life.
All that said, some people deserve to die. Some people commit acts that are so pitiless, they forego a human right to life. To afford them a human right to life would be to debauch what it is to be human. It is they who killed their ancestors and forebears, it is they who deserve to die.
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by Sushan »

Mercury wrote: January 21st, 2023, 12:11 am I do not think murder is morally permissible, and therefore must carry the appropriate burden of guilt - and it is a heavy burden. You do not kill an individual, but the struggles of their ancestors, to survive, to breed, to bring future generations into the world to give life to the person you deprived of life. You also murder all future generations to whom this person may have given life.
All that said, some people deserve to die. Some people commit acts that are so pitiless, they forego a human right to life. To afford them a human right to life would be to debauch what it is to be human. It is they who killed their ancestors and forebears, it is they who deserve to die.
Those who are deserve to die (as you mentioned) have to be killed by someone in order to let them have what they deserve. But then the man who gives them what they deserve will simply be a killer, and why would he be any better than the ones who initially deserved death penalty?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
Mercury
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by Mercury »

Mercury wrote: January 21st, 2023, 12:11 am I do not think murder is morally permissible, and therefore must carry the appropriate burden of guilt - and it is a heavy burden. You do not kill an individual, but the struggles of their ancestors, to survive, to breed, to bring future generations into the world to give life to the person you deprived of life. You also murder all future generations to whom this person may have given life.
All that said, some people deserve to die. Some people commit acts that are so pitiless, they forego a human right to life. To afford them a human right to life would be to debauch what it is to be human. It is they who killed their ancestors and forebears, it is they who deserve to die.
Sushan wrote: January 21st, 2023, 12:47 amThose who are deserve to die (as you mentioned) have to be killed by someone in order to let them have what they deserve. But then the man who gives them what they deserve will simply be a killer, and why would he be any better than the ones who initially deserved death penalty?
We might suppose, perhaps that the death penalty has some deterrent effect; such that the executioner makes a statement about what will not be tolerated, and thereby saves lives even as they take a life.
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Mounce574
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by Mounce574 »

I didn't feel guilt for those that I may have killed overseas because they were intending to kill me. As for taking a life, unless I am threatened, I would rather avoid the confrontation.
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by Good_Egg »

I remember reading a (fictional) story about the mysterious case of a number of condemned prisoners who dropped dead as they were being marched out to the electric chair or the firing squad.

The culprit turned out to be a mad scientist character testing a new death ray.

Who had in effect reasoned that this was the minimum-guilt way of doing it...
"For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God" - James 1:20
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by Alastair1980 »

I think there is a difference between what someone, or many people, have come to expect as the psychological consequence of an action and what the 'correct' consequence should be. There doesn't seem to be any reason to believe that a person should feel guilt after having killing another besides our preference that they do so; alongside this, it's likely that murder would be far easier for a person incapable of feeling guilt (or similar emotions) and so in many instances it would be wrong for us to expect guilt.

Put simply, when anyone says that they believe a murderer 'should' feel guilty, this can only be taken to mean that they believe guilt to be the appropriate response; however, they have no grounds to suppose that it is in any way 'correct'.
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: January 20th, 2023, 9:44 pm This topic is about the January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month, Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger



Since there are few topics in this forum in relation to murder, morality, selfishness, etc. I had a thought on asking this unusual question. Please do not be bothered by my dark thoughts (you always have the choice to just ignore the topic) and I am extremely sorry if this question makes you uncomfortable?

What will be the best reason for you to think of to get ridden from the guilty feelings if you are to (or had already) commit murder? In other words, killing what sort of a human being will let you be in peace (or with the least amount of guilt)?
If I understand what you're asking, you're asking for techniques or circumstances for addressing guilty feelings such that one eliminates or minimizes them.

Obviously sociopaths don't feel guilt, which though interesting, don't address your question. Similarly killing Hitler (or another death-deserving person) generally won't induce guilt and thus also don't apply.

Clearly rationalizations are the standard way of addressing self doubt/guilt. In my experience anger is the most effective emotion to counter sadness. So if I am upset with the death of my victim, I would exaggerate an act committed by the victim in my mind such that I became very angry with them.
"As usual... it depends."
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Mounce574
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by Mounce574 »

LuckyR wrote: January 21st, 2023, 6:54 pm
Sushan wrote: January 20th, 2023, 9:44 pm This topic is about the January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month, Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger



Since there are few topics in this forum in relation to murder, morality, selfishness, etc. I had a thought on asking this unusual question. Please do not be bothered by my dark thoughts (you always have the choice to just ignore the topic) and I am extremely sorry if this question makes you uncomfortable?

What will be the best reason for you to think of to get ridden from the guilty feelings if you are to (or had already) commit murder? In other words, killing what sort of a human being will let you be in peace (or with the least amount of guilt)?
If I understand what you're asking, you're asking for techniques or circumstances for addressing guilty feelings such that one eliminates or minimizes them.

Obviously sociopaths don't feel guilt, which though interesting, don't address your question. Similarly killing Hitler (or another death-deserving person) generally won't induce guilt and thus also don't apply.

Clearly rationalizations are the standard way of addressing self doubt/guilt. In my experience anger is the most effective emotion to counter sadness. So if I am upset with the death of my victim, I would exaggerate an act committed by the victim in my mind such that I became very angry with them.

I don't think anger counters sadness. Sometimes anger is grief manifested.
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by LuckyR »

Mounce574 wrote: January 21st, 2023, 8:13 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 21st, 2023, 6:54 pm
Sushan wrote: January 20th, 2023, 9:44 pm This topic is about the January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month, Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger



Since there are few topics in this forum in relation to murder, morality, selfishness, etc. I had a thought on asking this unusual question. Please do not be bothered by my dark thoughts (you always have the choice to just ignore the topic) and I am extremely sorry if this question makes you uncomfortable?

What will be the best reason for you to think of to get ridden from the guilty feelings if you are to (or had already) commit murder? In other words, killing what sort of a human being will let you be in peace (or with the least amount of guilt)?
If I understand what you're asking, you're asking for techniques or circumstances for addressing guilty feelings such that one eliminates or minimizes them.

Obviously sociopaths don't feel guilt, which though interesting, don't address your question. Similarly killing Hitler (or another death-deserving person) generally won't induce guilt and thus also don't apply.

Clearly rationalizations are the standard way of addressing self doubt/guilt. In my experience anger is the most effective emotion to counter sadness. So if I am upset with the death of my victim, I would exaggerate an act committed by the victim in my mind such that I became very angry with them.

I don't think anger counters sadness. Sometimes anger is grief manifested.
It does for me, though I accept that it doesn't for you apparently.
"As usual... it depends."
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Mounce574
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by Mounce574 »

LuckyR wrote: January 21st, 2023, 8:38 pm
Mounce574 wrote: January 21st, 2023, 8:13 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 21st, 2023, 6:54 pm
Sushan wrote: January 20th, 2023, 9:44 pm This topic is about the January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month, Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger



Since there are few topics in this forum in relation to murder, morality, selfishness, etc. I had a thought on asking this unusual question. Please do not be bothered by my dark thoughts (you always have the choice to just ignore the topic) and I am extremely sorry if this question makes you uncomfortable?

What will be the best reason for you to think of to get ridden from the guilty feelings if you are to (or had already) commit murder? In other words, killing what sort of a human being will let you be in peace (or with the least amount of guilt)?
If I understand what you're asking, you're asking for techniques or circumstances for addressing guilty feelings such that one eliminates or minimizes them.

Obviously sociopaths don't feel guilt, which though interesting, don't address your question. Similarly killing Hitler (or another death-deserving person) generally won't induce guilt and thus also don't apply.

Clearly rationalizations are the standard way of addressing self doubt/guilt. In my experience anger is the most effective emotion to counter sadness. So if I am upset with the death of my victim, I would exaggerate an act committed by the victim in my mind such that I became very angry with them.

I don't think anger counters sadness. Sometimes anger is grief manifested.
It does for me, though I accept that it doesn't for you apparently.
I don't think I can rationalize self-doubt/guilt becaue I have been in the military. It is basically more a means of survival. Murder is a high stress action and I chose to void my mind of any emotion. When a person dies, the sound/snell/sight of it all registers if you stop to rationalize it.
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by LuckyR »

Mounce574 wrote: January 21st, 2023, 8:50 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 21st, 2023, 8:38 pm
Mounce574 wrote: January 21st, 2023, 8:13 pm
LuckyR wrote: January 21st, 2023, 6:54 pm

If I understand what you're asking, you're asking for techniques or circumstances for addressing guilty feelings such that one eliminates or minimizes them.

Obviously sociopaths don't feel guilt, which though interesting, don't address your question. Similarly killing Hitler (or another death-deserving person) generally won't induce guilt and thus also don't apply.

Clearly rationalizations are the standard way of addressing self doubt/guilt. In my experience anger is the most effective emotion to counter sadness. So if I am upset with the death of my victim, I would exaggerate an act committed by the victim in my mind such that I became very angry with them.

I don't think anger counters sadness. Sometimes anger is grief manifested.
It does for me, though I accept that it doesn't for you apparently.
I don't think I can rationalize self-doubt/guilt becaue I have been in the military. It is basically more a means of survival. Murder is a high stress action and I chose to void my mind of any emotion. When a person dies, the sound/snell/sight of it all registers if you stop to rationalize it.
Just to be clear, are you treating murder and killing in battle as emotional equals?
"As usual... it depends."
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Mounce574
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by Mounce574 »

Somewhat. I knew I faced the possibility of killing people- and sadly, some of the people were innocent bystanders caught in gunfight: including women and children. I felt that I may have murdered them.
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LuckyR
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by LuckyR »

Mounce574 wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:10 pm Somewhat. I knew I faced the possibility of killing people- and sadly, some of the people were innocent bystanders caught in gunfight: including women and children. I felt that I may have murdered them.
Thanks for the clarification, I see your point.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sushan
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Re: Murder without guilt

Post by Sushan »

Mercury wrote: January 21st, 2023, 1:02 am
Mercury wrote: January 21st, 2023, 12:11 am I do not think murder is morally permissible, and therefore must carry the appropriate burden of guilt - and it is a heavy burden. You do not kill an individual, but the struggles of their ancestors, to survive, to breed, to bring future generations into the world to give life to the person you deprived of life. You also murder all future generations to whom this person may have given life.
All that said, some people deserve to die. Some people commit acts that are so pitiless, they forego a human right to life. To afford them a human right to life would be to debauch what it is to be human. It is they who killed their ancestors and forebears, it is they who deserve to die.
Sushan wrote: January 21st, 2023, 12:47 amThose who are deserve to die (as you mentioned) have to be killed by someone in order to let them have what they deserve. But then the man who gives them what they deserve will simply be a killer, and why would he be any better than the ones who initially deserved death penalty?
We might suppose, perhaps that the death penalty has some deterrent effect; such that the executioner makes a statement about what will not be tolerated, and thereby saves lives even as they take a life.
The same deterrent effect will be there if I choose to kill a serial killer for the betterment of the society. Many will be saved from death. But I will still be a murderer, and even the law enforcement authorities will chase after me. I might feel accomplishment and happiness within me. But that does not make me a good guy. But to the society I might be a hero. Still, I will be a killer and a bad guy. Ultimately the only difference between me and the serial killer will be the number of deaths that are written in front of our names.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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