If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

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Greta
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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by Greta » January 22nd, 2020, 7:47 pm

Arjand, fair points. It's clear that agony will long play a role in this life. Looking at the divided, uncontrolled and unsustainable mess that is humanity today, we might be able to take inspiration from those whose lives resemble the ideal, ie. achieving wisdom and empathy without agony. This is more than balanced out but those whose attitudes and actions are inherently destructive to self and others.

So, whatever good may come out humanity in the long term is clearly going to follow a period of unprecedented destruction, suffering and death of humans and other organisms. Now, if I was a deity, playing a game of "Earth", what chess moves would be available to me at this stage? My aim would be to engineer a "soft landing" solution to an unstable and deteriorating situation. How to reduce population and achieve sustainability with the bare minimum of suffering and destruction? If I'm not allowed to use war, poverty, pandemics or economic breakdown, I'd be in trouble.

For a soft landing - to transition with discipline instead of chaos - I would need strong pieces located in key spots "on the board" like US, China, India, Russia, Brazil and Australia. Trouble is, my opposition deity wants a "hard landing" because the super wealthy sweep up the bargains after crashes when small businesses and individuals go bust. And my opposition controls all of the key areas of the board, and they also own most resources. Achieving a soft landing in this situation is akin to winning with only a queen and a couple of pawns while your opponent has most of its royals and is about to convert a pawn into a queen.

What does a hapless deity to do within that? Miracle technology? A cheap and easy way to achieve nuclear fusion? Maybe action taken by the generations who are most impacted by today's politics? Renewable energy catches on despite government interference? Educating girls in developing countries might achieve more than any of the above options but it now looks like a matter of just how harsh and widespread the "hard landing" will be.

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by arjand » January 23rd, 2020, 8:15 am

One could argue that in a concept of applicated wisdom there is no place for agony or cruelty. I do not believe that there is a game at play. There is a choice to do good, to serve life in a good way. Philosophy can be the solution. It can develop intelligence and wisdom and thereby shape human culture. It can lift humanity to a higher level.

I am not into politics myself. I like to think in terms of 1000 years. I understand that from a political perspective, things may look like a game. But I do believe that philosophy can have an influence in choices that are made for achieving longer term results (that span multiple life times) and thereby on the micro time-scale level, achieve optimal progress to prevent agony, cruelty and other evils.

My main argument with regard to your original comment is that the potential for pain and for example depressive emotions could be vital for successful evolution and for the ability to discover wisdom. I believe that it would be unwise to replace that potential within the human with for example a bio-feedback device.

The question remains, can an ultimate state of wisdom ever be achieved or will the essence of the perceived wisdom remain relative to a momentary state of a being? Would it therefor be worthy of the power of God?
If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist.

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by Greta » January 23rd, 2020, 5:37 pm

arjand wrote:
January 23rd, 2020, 8:15 am
My main argument with regard to your original comment is that the potential for pain and for example depressive emotions could be vital for successful evolution and for the ability to discover wisdom. I believe that it would be unwise to replace that potential within the human with for example a bio-feedback device.
Might be. But that is because of the way reality is configured. If I was a deity, I would configure it better - without need for mind-bending agony and unbearable torture in order to develop mature and kind attitudes. I think that the current configuration of reality is much closer to concepts of hell than of heaven.

Now let's look a billion years into the future. There will either not trace of us, or entities will exist who will have long transcended pain and suffering.
arjand wrote:
January 23rd, 2020, 8:15 am
The question remains, can an ultimate state of wisdom ever be achieved or will the essence of the perceived wisdom remain relative to a momentary state of a being? Would it therefor be worthy of the power of God?
Well, since I think of wisdom as a blend of awareness and maturity, that seems very possible.

Split all of the atoms that comprise a pebble and the nuclear explosion could blow up a nation. The power of God would seem rather more ubiquitous than unattainable. Quarks within the nucleus of atoms are encapsulated primordial stuff, probably not dissimilar to the primordial stuff of the universe just after the big bang. The power of the early universe is literally inside of us.

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by UniversalAlien » January 23rd, 2020, 11:59 pm

Greta wrote:
Now let's look a billion years into the future. There will either not trace of us, or entities will exist who will have long transcended pain and suffering.

arjand wrote: ↑Today, 4:15 am
The question remains, can an ultimate state of wisdom ever be achieved or will the essence of the perceived wisdom remain relative to a momentary state of a being? Would it therefor be worthy of the power of God?

Well, since I think of wisdom as a blend of awareness and maturity, that seems very possible.
There is a tradition in the mythology of major religions and mystical cults, affirming the existence of of 'Ascended Masters' - Individuals who after departing this world, did not die but rather ascended to a higher plane where they can still interact with the material world of
the living.

Their existence may be hard to prove now - But with the development super and quantum
computers containing ever higher capacity of calculation - An ascended mind set is probable
if not inevitable. Of course computer 'awareness' and a 'consciousness' that rivals Human
must come first.

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by creation » January 24th, 2020, 9:32 am

Greta wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:51 pm
arjand wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 11:11 am


I do not believe that it is wise to replace (the potential for) pain and suffering with external perspective based solutions, e.g. a biofeedback device.

What is the optimum condition of a human? What is the optimum condition of a human in 1 day, 1 year or 1000 years from now?

It may be that the potential for pain and suffering is the foundation for reason. If that potential would be gone, I doubt that a pure logical replacement that operates based on a outside perspective (i.e. from knowledge from the past) could enable people to reach the future most efficiently.

The intention to end of pain and suffering is good. But from my perspective, it would be so because the intention could spur reasonable action to prevent pain and suffering with wisdom. The potential for pain and suffering remains but humans enjoy prosperity through reason.
The entire system is deeply skewed to the negative.

The best thing that can happen to you is not even close to being as intense as the very worst things are bad. Compare winning the lottery or having a child with watching all of your family be slowly tortured and killed. That is a huge gulf, and it is the reason or humanity's negativity bias. Reality is actually deeply negatively skewed. Consider how often death - the second worst thing that can happen to you - is seen as a "blessing", a relief from the worst things, agonising loss or pain.
But why do you agonize loss or pain?

What is it that you are actually agonizing about?

Did you not expect or think that this would happen, to you?
Greta wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:51 pm
The system ranges between sustained mind-blowing agony and great joy. I'd prefer a range from neutrality to mind-blowing joy.
Some people would prefer to have just mind-blowing joy only. But we do not always get what we want.
Greta wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:51 pm
Given that every life ends in disaster
But Life, Itself, never ends in disaster.

Greta wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:51 pm
- it would be nice for living beings to be sure of something beautiful beforehand. But it's brutal from go to whoa - even worse for other animals.
Do other animals see this dread and negativity? Or, only the human animal, and only when they are older?
Greta wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:51 pm
The level of brutality, cruelty and general awfulness meted out on life is way over-the-top,
This is a very negative view of things.

Have you ever considered that considering what the older human beings are doing, then actually they are getting their just deserts.

Maybe if the older human beings behaved in a way that was more beneficial for ALL, then there would not be so much perceived "brutality, cruelty, and general awfulness meted out on them".
Greta wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:51 pm
often inducing too much trauma from early ages to allow for character lessons to be learned from the hardships.
Will you provide some examples of this?

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by LuckyR » January 24th, 2020, 12:08 pm

Greta wrote:
January 23rd, 2020, 5:37 pm
arjand wrote:
January 23rd, 2020, 8:15 am
My main argument with regard to your original comment is that the potential for pain and for example depressive emotions could be vital for successful evolution and for the ability to discover wisdom. I believe that it would be unwise to replace that potential within the human with for example a bio-feedback device.
Might be. But that is because of the way reality is configured. If I was a deity, I would configure it better - without need for mind-bending agony and unbearable torture in order to develop mature and kind attitudes. I think that the current configuration of reality is much closer to concepts of hell than of heaven.

Now let's look a billion years into the future. There will either not trace of us, or entities will exist who will have long transcended pain and suffering.
arjand wrote:
January 23rd, 2020, 8:15 am
The question remains, can an ultimate state of wisdom ever be achieved or will the essence of the perceived wisdom remain relative to a momentary state of a being? Would it therefor be worthy of the power of God?
Well, since I think of wisdom as a blend of awareness and maturity, that seems very possible.

Split all of the atoms that comprise a pebble and the nuclear explosion could blow up a nation. The power of God would seem rather more ubiquitous than unattainable. Quarks within the nucleus of atoms are encapsulated primordial stuff, probably not dissimilar to the primordial stuff of the universe just after the big bang. The power of the early universe is literally inside of us.
Well since agony is entirely created by the firing of certain neurons in the brain (not by the gruesome events occurring in the rest of the body), it is highly likely that examples of individuals lacking that function of the brain have randomly occurred throughout history, why did those individuals not become the dominant group, genetically? Because there is a survival disadvantage to not experiencing agony. Thus a discussion noting the obvious short term downside to agony without acknowledging the almost certain long-term advantage of it, is at best disingenuous.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by Greta » January 24th, 2020, 6:22 pm

LuckyR wrote:
January 24th, 2020, 12:08 pm
Greta wrote:
January 23rd, 2020, 5:37 pm

Might be. But that is because of the way reality is configured. If I was a deity, I would configure it better - without need for mind-bending agony and unbearable torture in order to develop mature and kind attitudes. I think that the current configuration of reality is much closer to concepts of hell than of heaven.

Now let's look a billion years into the future. There will either not trace of us, or entities will exist who will have long transcended pain and suffering.


Well, since I think of wisdom as a blend of awareness and maturity, that seems very possible.

Split all of the atoms that comprise a pebble and the nuclear explosion could blow up a nation. The power of God would seem rather more ubiquitous than unattainable. Quarks within the nucleus of atoms are encapsulated primordial stuff, probably not dissimilar to the primordial stuff of the universe just after the big bang. The power of the early universe is literally inside of us.
Well since agony is entirely created by the firing of certain neurons in the brain (not by the gruesome events occurring in the rest of the body), it is highly likely that examples of individuals lacking that function of the brain have randomly occurred throughout history, why did those individuals not become the dominant group, genetically? Because there is a survival disadvantage to not experiencing agony. Thus a discussion noting the obvious short term downside to agony without acknowledging the almost certain long-term advantage of it, is at best disingenuous.
Sure. That's because other animals, largely including humans, are as thick as pig droppings and just about have to be beaten into a helpless, bloody pulp before they accept inconvenient truths that aid survival. Look at Australia's politicians who are still denying that climate change is real or at all related to the fact that most of our east coast forests, that have stood for millennia, will be gone by summer's end.

So nature provides a blunt instrument to get through those thick skulls.

I like to think that, in time, the humans who pull through the coming natural disasters, wars and pandemics in this overpopulated world, will be more sophisticated. If they, say, have a kidney stone, they might not need to be sent into paroxysms of pain to get the message that they need to do something. Just receive a message: "Kidney stone" should be enough to send them straight to treatment. In a time-poor situation, such breaking a leg, agony serves to guide the poor blighter towards doing the least damaging movements. However, just because I can't think of a way around this does not mean there are subtler, more sophisticated means of achieving the same thing with subtler, more sophisticated humans (or post-humans).

Perhaps, the body has sufficient self-repair capacities, then pain might not be needed, with any unfixable injury being so extreme that it would be fatal anyway?

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by Greta » January 24th, 2020, 6:23 pm

creation wrote:
January 24th, 2020, 9:32 am
Greta wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:51 pm
often inducing too much trauma from early ages to allow for character lessons to be learned from the hardships.
Will you provide some examples of this?
In a word (or acronym), PTSD.

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by creation » January 25th, 2020, 2:45 am

Greta wrote:
January 24th, 2020, 6:23 pm
creation wrote:
January 24th, 2020, 9:32 am

Will you provide some examples of this?
In a word (or acronym), PTSD.
I meant what are some examples of what have caused the trauma from early ages?

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by creation » January 25th, 2020, 2:46 am

Greta wrote:
January 24th, 2020, 6:23 pm
creation wrote:
January 24th, 2020, 9:32 am

Will you provide some examples of this?
In a word (or acronym), PTSD.
I meant what are some examples of what have caused the trauma from early ages?

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by Greta » January 25th, 2020, 5:58 pm

You don't need me to answer those questions.

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by LuckyR » January 26th, 2020, 4:05 am

Greta wrote:
January 24th, 2020, 6:22 pm
LuckyR wrote:
January 24th, 2020, 12:08 pm


Well since agony is entirely created by the firing of certain neurons in the brain (not by the gruesome events occurring in the rest of the body), it is highly likely that examples of individuals lacking that function of the brain have randomly occurred throughout history, why did those individuals not become the dominant group, genetically? Because there is a survival disadvantage to not experiencing agony. Thus a discussion noting the obvious short term downside to agony without acknowledging the almost certain long-term advantage of it, is at best disingenuous.
Sure. That's because other animals, largely including humans, are as thick as pig droppings and just about have to be beaten into a helpless, bloody pulp before they accept inconvenient truths that aid survival. Look at Australia's politicians who are still denying that climate change is real or at all related to the fact that most of our east coast forests, that have stood for millennia, will be gone by summer's end.

So nature provides a blunt instrument to get through those thick skulls.

I like to think that, in time, the humans who pull through the coming natural disasters, wars and pandemics in this overpopulated world, will be more sophisticated. If they, say, have a kidney stone, they might not need to be sent into paroxysms of pain to get the message that they need to do something. Just receive a message: "Kidney stone" should be enough to send them straight to treatment. In a time-poor situation, such breaking a leg, agony serves to guide the poor blighter towards doing the least damaging movements. However, just because I can't think of a way around this does not mean there are subtler, more sophisticated means of achieving the same thing with subtler, more sophisticated humans (or post-humans).

Perhaps, the body has sufficient self-repair capacities, then pain might not be needed, with any unfixable injury being so extreme that it would be fatal anyway?
I don't disagree. Silicon based life forms certainly will solve this issue. As for humans, I suppose yogi masters probably already have.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by UniversalAlien » January 26th, 2020, 6:01 am

Censor me if you want - Your erased my post as I was writing it - Why?

I apologize for starting this post - Keep the Devil and the Hell you worship so much !!!

- UniversalAlien

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by UniversalAlien » January 26th, 2020, 6:35 am

We live and learn - Except the species Man - Man does not live and learn - Evolution has ended.

How this thread ever got posted surprises me - In the atheist world any mention of god is obscene.

That's why you allowed the post, right? - To prove how stupid the concept of god really is?

I see your point - Right, a post that even smells like ' a New Dawn' concept and you have to kill it.

Finally let me answer another post while giving my summation of this one.

The post asked "Is Pornography an Art" - Maybe, depending on how you define art.
- But in today's world pornography is the way - and the more obscene and grotesque
the more people feed on it.

And the rulers are of course the 'sado-masochists' - Suffering? - Humans feed on suffering
and worship it - and in the end dam your species to destruction - And love every suffering
moment while you do it.

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Re: If You had the Power of God, How would you change the World?

Post by Sculptor1 » January 26th, 2020, 7:16 am

UniversalAlien wrote:
January 26th, 2020, 6:01 am
Censor me if you want - Your erased my post as I was writing it - Why?
This is not possible.
The error was with you.
Do you consider yourself paranoid?

I apologize for starting this post - Keep the Devil and the Hell you worship so much !!!

- UniversalAlien
I think you just answered my question. LOL

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