Uyghur

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Sculptor1
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Re: Uyghur

Post by Sculptor1 » October 16th, 2020, 4:02 am

Arjen wrote:
September 27th, 2020, 2:16 pm

People call it Chinazi nowadays and the leader Xitler. Communism is a form of fascism ofcourse, but until Xitler's rise, I think everyone was happy with the breath of fresh air that was going through China. Since the CCPvirus, we see many military escalations:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... nds-switch

What is your opinons?
You are posting stuff that does not match your post.
You are attacking the Soloman Islands for no longer recognising Taiwan when only a few countries do, not even the UN does.
There is NO military escalation here.

No one could take you seriously.

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Arjen
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Re: Uyghur

Post by Arjen » October 16th, 2020, 4:33 am

1) I didn't say that. You misread.
2) You didn't answer the question.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
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Count Lucanor
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Re: Uyghur

Post by Count Lucanor » October 17th, 2020, 8:54 pm

Arjen wrote:
September 27th, 2020, 2:16 pm
Recently, Mulan made headlines concerning looking away from the CCP's atrocities.
We see hashtags like:
#StandwithHongKong
#StandwithHumanRights
#BoycotMulan

I suppose everyone knows about the concentration camps containing the Uyghur minority. Some reports say 1 million are in camps like that, others say 3-5 million. Many never come back. Some come back really "disturbed" after years. In this article, for example, a clear idea can be found concerning what is going on:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... dden_camps
I wonder, if you had to rate these in terms of the harshness of collective punishment and tyrannical abuse, which one would come on top?

- Chinese treatment of the Uyghur minority.
- Israel treatment of Palestinian population.
- US treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
- Saudi Arabia's treatment of its own population.
Arjen wrote:
September 27th, 2020, 2:16 pm
Should the free world strike hard and fast, or try to talk teh CCP out of these human rights violations?
What is your opinons?
What is the "free world" and how do we arrive to making sense of that term?

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Arjen
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Re: Uyghur

Post by Arjen » October 18th, 2020, 3:27 am

Count Lucanor wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 8:54 pm
I wonder, if you had to rate these in terms of the harshness of collective punishment and tyrannical abuse, which one would come on top?

- Chinese treatment of the Uyghur minority.
- Israel treatment of Palestinian population.
- US treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
- Saudi Arabia's treatment of its own population.
1) Uyghur. Genetic cleansing is the most extreme possible.
Much lower at 100) Saudi Arabia. It is severely oppressive and racist/sexist.
Much lower again at 200) Israel's treatment of Palestinians. While Israel has a right to a country and Palistine denied it, now Israel is gradually taking the land initially belonging to Palestines and, given military superiority, not likely to lose.
Much lower again at 300) Guantanamo Bay. A very small number of people that were judged to be terrorrists are being treated in a horrible way. It should not be that way.


All 4 are not comparable, but given the fact that all the Uyghur suffer in all ways as the seperate sufferings in the other 3 examples (and then some) makes that one come out on top in an extreme way.


Arjen wrote:
September 27th, 2020, 2:16 pm
What is the "free world" and how do we arrive to making sense of that term?
It is the group of not totalitarian countries, where the population has the largest amount of control on who will lead them.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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Count Lucanor
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Re: Uyghur

Post by Count Lucanor » October 18th, 2020, 11:32 am

Arjen wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 3:27 am
Count Lucanor wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 8:54 pm
I wonder, if you had to rate these in terms of the harshness of collective punishment and tyrannical abuse, which one would come on top?

- Chinese treatment of the Uyghur minority.
- Israel treatment of Palestinian population.
- US treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
- Saudi Arabia's treatment of its own population.
1) Uyghur. Genetic cleansing is the most extreme possible.
However, as the BBC article you provided states, it is closer to an ideological operation than to an ethnic apartheid system or eugenics:
"There are Uighurs in positions of authority in Xinjiang.
Many of the government officials and police officers who tailed and stopped us were Uighurs.
But while the system of profiling and control has been likened by some to Apartheid, clearly that is not entirely accurate.
Many Uighurs do have a stake in the system.
Shohrat Zakir, a Uighur and, in theory, the second most powerful politician in the region, suggests the battle has almost been won: 'In the past 21 months, no violent terrorist attacks have occurred and the number of criminal cases, including those endangering public security, has dropped significantly,' he is reported to have told state media."
Arjen wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 3:27 am
Much lower at 100) Saudi Arabia. It is severely oppressive and racist/sexist.
Much lower again at 200) Israel's treatment of Palestinians. While Israel has a right to a country and Palistine denied it, now Israel is gradually taking the land initially belonging to Palestines and, given military superiority, not likely to lose.
Much lower again at 300) Guantanamo Bay. A very small number of people that were judged to be terrorrists are being treated in a horrible way. It should not be that way.
Other than the population control measures, I don't see in the article references to torture and collective punishment towards the Uighurs at the same scale of Israeli's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Unlike the Chinese authorities, apparently, it is doubtful that the state of Israel would be able to come up with propaganda pointing to"rising living standards for Palestine's residents". Assuming that the suspicious correctional facilities held the thousands of people that are being estimated, that would pale against the 13 million Palestinians held as hostages of their own land and systematically oppressed. Although any wrong from Israel or any other state doesn't make any right from China (typical whataboutery), and we should direct proper criticism to each one, it seems obvious that this overly dramatic focus on China's authoritarian politics is more interested in peddling anti Communist propaganda than in raising balanced concerns about oppressed populations around the world.
Arjen wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 3:27 am
It is the group of not totalitarian countries, where the population has the largest amount of control on who will lead them.
Are any of these part of the "free world": Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, India,Turkey?

Is any intervention of a foreign power consistent with population having "the largest amount of control on who will lead them"?

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Sculptor1
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Re: Uyghur

Post by Sculptor1 » October 18th, 2020, 11:50 am

Jack D Ripper wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 11:25 pm
What I think should be done is talk with China to try to get them to change their ways, with economic sanctions against them if they continue. For example, I think a refusal to trade with China (by the US and simultaneously other countries) would tend to get them to consider changing their ways.

What should be done and what will be done, of course, often have little to do with each other. The reason being, doing the right thing often comes with a cost, a cost that often people are not willing to pay. I will presently refrain from commenting on what this says about people.
Take a look inside the computer you are tapping away at. It's mostly made in China.
If the West could ever get their sh1t together to boycott China, it's most likley that the West would suffer far more than China would.
China have a way of doing things that works for them. China has a population of 1.4 billion. Consider the US with a population of 330 million can't keep itself in one piece, and fears more then the most gross and basic exclusionary form of democracy in which they basically elect a year-King every once in a while. The US is split along so many political, indentity, racial, economic, religious lines that its future is in continual doubt.
China on the other hand, promotes a single vision of the future through a complex party machinery. China shall absorb Hong Kong fully and the Uighurs and other peripheral entities such as Tibet shall be integrated.
By contrast the US could not organise a piss up in a brewery. Their record since 1945 is basically bullying several countries, loosing wars and if they claim "mission accomplished" you can be sure that they have created a wasteland of social misery and generational despertation, as we see in Iraq and Afghanistan. American can't be trusted. One minute it has a deal with Iran or is part of the Paris Accord and then a few years later the new year king pisses that all away on a F*cking Tweet.
On the other hand - you know what you are going to get from China. They represent a stable political entity in which inward investment has flooded because they can be TRUSTED.
Like it or not. Unless the US can get control of itself and respect its own people's needs; have a more resectable media, or one that is state controlled, the US is guarenteed to screw itself up.

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Arjen
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Re: Uyghur

Post by Arjen » October 18th, 2020, 1:13 pm

Wait, did you say that the CCP can be trusted @Sculptor1 ?!?
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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Arjen
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Re: Uyghur

Post by Arjen » October 18th, 2020, 1:22 pm

Count Lucanor wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 11:32 am
However, as the BBC article you provided states, it is closer to an ideological operation than to an ethnic apartheid system or eugenics:
[\quote]
After that article was written, 13 tons of Uyghur hair was found. Where are the people that hair belonged to? There is mounting evidence of a cleansing.
State media are propaganda and censorship only.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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Arjen
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Re: Uyghur

Post by Arjen » October 18th, 2020, 1:23 pm

Lost 3/4 of my response.

Question @Count Lucanor where are you, that you quote CCP propaganda and censorship?
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
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Re: Uyghur

Post by Sculptor1 » October 18th, 2020, 1:52 pm

Arjen wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 1:13 pm
Wait, did you say that the CCP can be trusted
IN the context if what I said - "China" can be trusted. I did not specifically say CCP, but it is the CCP's party machine that has been the architech of the world's fastest and greatest technological progress in history.
Why do you think the China has received more inward investment than anywhere else?
Why do you think corporations have packed up their factories all over the West and started to use China?

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Re: Uyghur

Post by Sculptor1 » October 18th, 2020, 2:01 pm

Arjen wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 1:23 pm
Lost 3/4 of my response.

Question where are you, that you quote CCP propaganda and censorship?
The Uighurs are Muslim. China has its methods to deal with the potential threat from Islamic terrorism; the West has its way. This is relatively recent the persecutions only really started in the last few years, since 2014, and is a direct response to the perception of terrorist threats.

The West invades foreign countries and lays them waste, the Chinese act within their own borders, and in their own ways.
Maybe if the West had not imposed the Jewish state upon Palestine, and carved up the Ottoman empire is such callous ways, there might not exist such a high level of threat from Islam today.

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Re: Uyghur

Post by Sculptor1 » October 18th, 2020, 2:17 pm

Arjen wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 3:27 am
Count Lucanor wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 8:54 pm
I wonder, if you had to rate these in terms of the harshness of collective punishment and tyrannical abuse, which one would come on top?

- Chinese treatment of the Uyghur minority.
- Israel treatment of Palestinian population.
- US treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
- Saudi Arabia's treatment of its own population.
1) Uyghur. Genetic cleansing is the most extreme possible.
You keep making a fool of yourself.
No agency on earth is making the claim that there is ANY ethnic cleansing. There is a difference between "education camps" and gas chambers. ANd between 120,000 and six million.
And the "most extreme possible" would mean a comparison with Nazi German's killing of 6 million Jews. There is a difference between "education camps" and gas chambers. ANd between 120,000 and six million. So start talking facts or STFU.
Islam is antithetical to Chinese Society which is basically atheistic. Harbouring a rising Islamic rebellion would like the rise of Satanists in the US, which would be put down with force.
We might not like it but China is saying "be Chinese", if you want to live in China.
It's not pleasant, but no one is loosing their land or their life.

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Re: Uyghur

Post by chewybrian » October 18th, 2020, 7:02 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 2:17 pm
Arjen wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 3:27 am

1) Uyghur. Genetic cleansing is the most extreme possible.
You keep making a fool of yourself.
No agency on earth is making the claim that there is ANY ethnic cleansing. There is a difference between "education camps" and gas chambers. ANd between 120,000 and six million.
And the "most extreme possible" would mean a comparison with Nazi German's killing of 6 million Jews. There is a difference between "education camps" and gas chambers. ANd between 120,000 and six million. So start talking facts or STFU.
Islam is antithetical to Chinese Society which is basically atheistic. Harbouring a rising Islamic rebellion would like the rise of Satanists in the US, which would be put down with force.
We might not like it but China is saying "be Chinese", if you want to live in China.
It's not pleasant, but no one is loosing their land or their life.
Arjen may be pushing the point, but I can't stomach your defense of China. "Education camps" :roll:

I think you are right that there is not outright genocide, but isn't forced sterilization the same thing in the end?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53220713
China is forcing women to be sterilised or fitted with contraceptive devices in Xinjiang in an apparent attempt to limit the population of Muslim Uighurs, according to new research.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."

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Re: Uyghur

Post by chewybrian » October 18th, 2020, 7:11 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
October 18th, 2020, 2:17 pm
No agency on earth is making the claim that there is ANY ethnic cleansing.
From the BBC, in the article I just quoted quoted in the last post...
Mr Zenz's report characterises the alleged campaign of coercive birth control in Xinjiang as part of a "demographic campaign of genocide" against the Uighurs.

"These findings provide the strongest evidence yet that Beijing's policies in Xinjiang meet one of the genocide criteria cited in the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide," he writes.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."

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Arjen
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Re: Uyghur

Post by Arjen » October 19th, 2020, 6:46 am

Yeah, it is why I included this one:
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/c ... index.html
But what is more is the attitude of Han-Chinese. It is every bit as bas as we see the Nazi's in the old WW2 war movies. But you would have to go there or associate to know.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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