If you include smug satisfaction (for telling the big lie and getting away with it) as "payment", then I agree with you.Robert66 wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2021, 5:08 pm Here is a quote for consideration. It comes from the OP by UniversalAlien (presumably not her real name) which started one of the longest threads on this forum, "Gun Control and Mass Murder".
'I could not watch the news this morning save for only one story: 27 people, 20 of which were children between 5-10 years old were gunned down by a lone gunman who also killed his mother who was teaching the children at the time. Gun control advocates can now celebrate {cynicism intentional}. Again they will start to call for more draconian anti-gun laws to protect the public - But will this really protect the public? Australia after a similar incident some years ago outlawed all guns. And then the crime rate went up so high they had to rescind the law. In the USA with many millions of guns already in the hands of the public a gun ban would cause, to use an old saying: "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns".'
I suspect UniversalAlien is a paid troll, receiving some reward, tangible or perceived, for posting dangerous lies, to a US-based forum, about a most sensitive issue in the US. The lies I refer to are numerous, and some are contained in the quote above:
-that gun control advocates would celebrate a mass murder;
-that Australia, after a similar incident, 'outlawed all guns';
-that Australia's 'crime rate then went up so high',
-that Australia 'had to rescind the law'.
These are all lies, of the most bare-faced variety. How do I know? I am Australian, and I have done a lot of research on the subject. I am also a gun-control advocate and I most certainly do not celebrate any mass murder.
As for the payment or reward for such trolling, I can't know whether UniversalAlien would have been paid directly by the NRA to spread pro-gun lies, or is just a deluded individual who believes the "alternate facts" made powerful by Trump and his cohort, however the effect of these blatant lies is the same regardless of payment. The NRA would be pleased that UniversalAlien has reached out to the world via this forum to spread lies which are designed to persuade readers that more gun ownership would be preferable.
Paid forum trolls
- LuckyR
- Moderator
- Posts: 7935
- Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am
Re: Paid forum trolls
-
- Posts: 10339
- Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Re: Paid forum trolls
-
- Posts: 10339
- Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Re: Paid forum trolls
I wonder if there is a common motive which drives them? Is it just their perception that anybody who learns anything about anything accepts that thing unquestioningly? Does that perception simply come from not having a particular form of education themselves, and therefore assuming that that education is harder to come by than it really is, and therefore assuming that people who have it guard it jealously and look down on those who don't have it?
If so, it's interesting that only certain types of education are treated like this. It's a perception that people like Asif and evolution/creation tend to have about a subject like philosophy or some of the sciences, but probably wouldn't have about a different specialism like, say, plumbing.
Nobody, as far as I know, says: "You plumbers in your ivory towers think your[sic] so great, with your dogmas about 22mm copper piping and compression joints!..."
-
- Posts: 10339
- Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Re: Paid forum trolls
- Robert66
- Posts: 521
- Joined: April 20th, 2014, 5:13 pm
Re: Paid forum trolls
I agree with you, LuckyR - I do include smug satisfaction as a type of payment.
Yes - 'free spirits', unlike the academic intellectual who, they say, has no freedom of thought; 'untroubled ...' yet strangely having a lot to say about what (they think) goes on in academia.Steve3007 wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2021, 5:02 am ... Asif.
... evolution/creation
... shorthand for the class of poster whose most obvious common feature is that they see themselves as an intellectual free spirit, untroubled by what they see as the intellectual straight jacket of learning what other people think/thought about stuff.
It is interesting to ponder all this. I see it as an ironic elitism by which these intellectual free spirits place their innate intelligence, and their hard-won knowledge of how the world really works, way above the straight-jacketed professors and their thoughtless, indoctrinated students.Steve3007 wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2021, 5:02 am I wonder if there is a common motive which drives them? Is it just their perception that anybody who learns anything about anything accepts that thing unquestioningly? Does that perception simply come from not having a particular form of education themselves, and therefore assuming that that education is harder to come by than it really is, and therefore assuming that people who have it guard it jealously and look down on those who don't have it?
It makes me wish that all occupations were viewed as "trades", whereby a philosopher could be generally respected by the public, who would assume that philosopher has actually learnt quite a lot in their years of study and debate. Alas, philosophers will continue to disagree with other philosophers, and statements of fact, such as "copper pipes are better than lead pipes", are hard to come by in philosophy. It could be concluded that "if they can't agree on anything, it [philosophy] is all a load of garbage".Steve3007 wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2021, 5:02 am If so, it's interesting that only certain types of education are treated like this. It's a perception that people like Asif and evolution/creation tend to have about a subject like philosophy or some of the sciences, but probably wouldn't have about a different specialism like, say, plumbing.
Nobody, as far as I know, says: "You plumbers in your ivory towers think your[sic] so great, with your dogmas about 22mm copper piping and compression joints!..."
Frustratingly, Australian plumbing is still an amalgam of metric and "imperial" measurements. The products appear to always be manufactured in metric, then stupidly sold to us as eg 3/4" (20mm), or 3" (80mm). I say stupidly because there is a very big difference between 3 inches and 80mm, enough for a major water leak. In an ideal world, metric would be the only system.Steve3007 wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2021, 5:09 am (Footnote: that little example of plumber terminology was UK-centric. I presume US plumbers use inches, not millimeters, to specify the diameter of copper piping? In the UK, the two most common standards are 15mm and 22mm. If I had to guess, I'd say they use metric in Australian plumbing too?)
- chewybrian
- Posts: 1594
- Joined: May 9th, 2018, 7:17 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Epictetus
- Location: Florida man
Re: Paid forum trolls
It's 1/2" copper for the most part here, though a free spirit like the ones you mentioned might use PEX, or just throw away their cup like Diogenes and drink from the creek with their hands.Steve3007 wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2021, 5:02 am Since he/she'll probably burn out and stop posting soon, I think it's interesting to consider the latest evolution/creation style poster. Asif. I say "evolution/creation style poster" as a shorthand for the class of poster whose most obvious common feature is that they see themselves as an intellectual free spirit, untroubled by what they see as the intellectual straight jacket of learning what other people think/thought about stuff. As our old friend who started off calling himself "creation", and changed to "evolution", did.
I wonder if there is a common motive which drives them? Is it just their perception that anybody who learns anything about anything accepts that thing unquestioningly? Does that perception simply come from not having a particular form of education themselves, and therefore assuming that that education is harder to come by than it really is, and therefore assuming that people who have it guard it jealously and look down on those who don't have it?
If so, it's interesting that only certain types of education are treated like this. It's a perception that people like Asif and evolution/creation tend to have about a subject like philosophy or some of the sciences, but probably wouldn't have about a different specialism like, say, plumbing.
Nobody, as far as I know, says: "You plumbers in your ivory towers think your[sic] so great, with your dogmas about 22mm copper piping and compression joints!..."
I don't know how we can judge the motives of such posters. They may sincerely believe they are on to something that most people can't see or don't want to see. Or, they may just want to create the impression that they know something important, but don't deem us worthy to learn the secret.
That seems like a common tactic on a lot of boards to grab attention in that way, though it is much less common here, thankfully. It is tedious to even look at some of those threads, with the posturing and implied 'unspoken' wisdom, and a few poor souls taking the bait and getting abused for their efforts. As you say, though, the fire burns too bright and goes out quickly. If they kept at it too long, everyone would tune out and they would not get the attention they seem to be seeking.
-
- Posts: 10339
- Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Re: Paid forum trolls
Interesting. (Sadly, I'm not being sarcastic when I say that. I really do think it's interesting.) I don't know this, because all plumbing I've done has been relatively recent, but I suspect UK copper piping used to be 1/2" and 1" and that 15mm and 22mm were chosen as the very approximate equivalents of that when most things here went metric (although obviously you'd think it would be 13 and 25). A little bit like the situation in Australia, as described at the end of Robert66's post, we tend to have an odd mix of metric and imperial measurements here.chewybrian wrote:It's 1/2" copper for the most part here...
One thing I do know, having fitted a new bathroom in my house several years ago, is that I have respect for plumbers. I found getting compression joints in copper piping leak-free very frustrating, and it there's a leak you have to drain the entire system again to re-heat the joint to the point where the solder will melt. (I guess that's why it's mostly plastic piping these days.) I suspect plumbers must only be able to keep calm by practicing Zen Buddhism or something. Plasterers are another trade that I have great respect for, and I suspect the nature of their required skill is that they need a whole different coping-philosophy to plumbers, but that's a whole other topic. ("Coping philosophies for different trades".)
. Yes! Although I guess they might point out that innovations in plumbing (like replacing copper pipes with plastic) come from those free-thinking plumbers who are willing to dare to dream and aren't fenced in by the dogmas of plumbing school. I expect there are furious arguments about this on plumbing discussion websites....though a free spirit like the ones you mentioned might use PEX, or just throw away their cup like Diogenes and drink from the creek with their hands.
I wouldn't say "judge" so much as try to work out what makes them tick. But, no, we can only really guess.I don't know how we can judge the motives of such posters....
I think creation/evolution, particularly, was one of those who liked to give the impression that he knew something profound and important that it took his childlike innocence to understand, and that it would be futile to even try to tell to all those people who are blinded by their book-learning. One of the ironies of this attitude is that, as far as I can tell, the vast majority of us aren't actually the academics that these people think we are. I'm certainly not. As far as I can tell, there's only one person currently posting who counts as a genuine academic philosopher.They may sincerely believe they are on to something that most people can't see or don't want to see. Or, they may just want to create the impression that they know something important, but don't deem us worthy to learn the secret.
That seems like a common tactic on a lot of boards to grab attention in that way, though it is much less common here, thankfully. It is tedious to even look at some of those threads, with the posturing and implied 'unspoken' wisdom, and a few poor souls taking the bait and getting abused for their efforts. As you say, though, the fire burns too bright and goes out quickly. If they kept at it too long, everyone would tune out and they would not get the attention they seem to be seeking.
-
- Posts: 10339
- Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Re: Paid forum trolls
Compression joints don't use solder. I meant solder joints. Compression joints use the compression of a soft metal ring that they call an "olive" (another thing I love is trade terminology) which is squashed when you tighten the joint so as to make a watertight seal.
- Sculptor1
- Posts: 7091
- Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am
Re: Paid forum trolls
GIven the low number of participants it would not be cost effective.
Thee trolls are paid to raid political FaceBook pages, Twitter accounts and other such accounts to post lies, and to sow discord.
Cambridge_Analytica
.. have been rigging UK elections since 2008.
- Sculptor1
- Posts: 7091
- Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am
Re: Paid forum trolls
Steve3007 wrote: ↑June 24th, 2021, 6:35 am Mistake here: " I found getting compression joints in copper piping leak-free very frustrating...".
Compression joints don't use solder. I meant solder joints. Compression joints use the compression of a soft metal ring that they call an "olive" (another thing I love is trade terminology) which is squashed when you tighten the joint so as to make a watertight seal.
Was that the fault of paid trolls?
- chewybrian
- Posts: 1594
- Joined: May 9th, 2018, 7:17 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Epictetus
- Location: Florida man
Re: Paid forum trolls
I don't see why we have any reason to assume what the academic philosopher gets out of his study. Certainly, he's going to be made to study some stuff that does not resonate with him. Yet, there's no reason that he can't be deeply moved and inspired by what does hit home. I study for my own sake, like I figure most of us do. But, that doesn't mean that I have a better understanding or use the philosophy more properly because my motives for studying are somehow more 'pure'. And, it certainly doesn't mean that my understanding is closer to the truth or the intent of the original authors.Steve3007 wrote: ↑June 24th, 2021, 5:43 amI think creation/evolution, particularly, was one of those who liked to give the impression that he knew something profound and important that it took his childlike innocence to understand, and that it would be futile to even try to tell to all those people who are blinded by their book-learning. One of the ironies of this attitude is that, as far as I can tell, the vast majority of us aren't actually the academics that these people think we are. I'm certainly not. As far as I can tell, there's only one person currently posting who counts as a genuine academic philosopher.chewybrian wrote:They may sincerely believe they are on to something that most people can't see or don't want to see. Or, they may just want to create the impression that they know something important, but don't deem us worthy to learn the secret.
That seems like a common tactic on a lot of boards to grab attention in that way, though it is much less common here, thankfully. It is tedious to even look at some of those threads, with the posturing and implied 'unspoken' wisdom, and a few poor souls taking the bait and getting abused for their efforts. As you say, though, the fire burns too bright and goes out quickly. If they kept at it too long, everyone would tune out and they would not get the attention they seem to be seeking.
I think we often assume that 'normal' folks can't understand philosophy or don't care to try. But, when the occasion comes up and the discussion turns to philosophy, I find that most people have an interest and that they can get the core concepts quickly. In the books, the concepts are sometimes obscured by jargon or fluffy language, but when you express the concepts in simple English, they often resonate and usually make sense. Only about 1 in 5 people seem anxious when serious discussion takes place, and seem to want to quickly escape back into the distractions of the ordinary world of false order.
I don't know if the ratio holds among the academics, as I only know one in real life. He doesn't seem to treat important ideas as abstractions as far as I can see. My gut says that they are as likely as regular folks to learn the ideas without allowing the ideas to impact them, which is maybe somewhere in that 20% range that I just made up based on my anecdotal experience.
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 6227
- Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
- Location: NYC Man
Re: Paid forum trolls
My main vocation is music (which you might remember). That's a common thing with some musicians, too. There's an aversion to musical education/lessons because somehow they think it will "teach the creativity out of them," or "teach out of them what makes them unique as musicians." I've never quite understood that attitude. To some extent I think it's simply fueled by being an excuse to be kind of lazy and not put in the hard work that they'll have to put in as a student. "I'm fine/happy doing what I'm doing, I don't need additional work/chores/etc." But there also seems to be some sort of belief that education will change them and will iron out their quirks, as if it's designed to turn everyone into carbon copies of each other . . . I'm just not sure what the source of that is as such a strong belief.Steve3007 wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2021, 5:02 am Since he/she'll probably burn out and stop posting soon, I think it's interesting to consider the latest evolution/creation style poster. Asif. I say "evolution/creation style poster" as a shorthand for the class of poster whose most obvious common feature is that they see themselves as an intellectual free spirit, untroubled by what they see as the intellectual straight jacket of learning what other people think/thought about stuff. As our old friend who started off calling himself "creation", and changed to "evolution", did.
I wonder if there is a common motive which drives them? Is it just their perception that anybody who learns anything about anything accepts that thing unquestioningly? Does that perception simply come from not having a particular form of education themselves, and therefore assuming that that education is harder to come by than it really is, and therefore assuming that people who have it guard it jealously and look down on those who don't have it?
If so, it's interesting that only certain types of education are treated like this. It's a perception that people like Asif and evolution/creation tend to have about a subject like philosophy or some of the sciences, but probably wouldn't have about a different specialism like, say, plumbing.
Nobody, as far as I know, says: "You plumbers in your ivory towers think your[sic] so great, with your dogmas about 22mm copper piping and compression joints!..."
-
- Posts: 10339
- Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Re: Paid forum trolls
In music particularly, but also in the arts generally, I suspect it's partly a sort of self-perpetuating cliché. In fictionalized accounts of musicians' lives, the theme of the self-taught genius, who picked up a guitar or sat down at a piano at the age of 8 and could just do it, comes up over and over again. For example, I watched the start of the Elton John biopic "Rocketman" recently (haven't got around to finishing it yet). It comes up there, with the young Reggie Dwight having a natural aptitude for the piano. I guess it's the seductive notion of the natural, instinctive flawed genius, versus the person who has to work at it.Terrapin Station wrote:...I'm just not sure what the source of that is as such a strong belief.
-
- Posts: 10339
- Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Re: Paid forum trolls
-
- Posts: 10339
- Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Re: Paid forum trolls
I think one of main things that puts "normal" people off discussing subjects that are considered intellectual is the assumption that other people will think them pretentious. It's self-perpetuating, because being put off like that means that conversations like that tend not to happen often so when they do, it does seem pretentious.chewybrian wrote:I think we often assume that 'normal' folks can't understand philosophy or don't care to try. But, when the occasion comes up and the discussion turns to philosophy, I find that most people have an interest and that they can get the core concepts quickly. In the books, the concepts are sometimes obscured by jargon or fluffy language, but when you express the concepts in simple English, they often resonate and usually make sense. Only about 1 in 5 people seem anxious when serious discussion takes place, and seem to want to quickly escape back into the distractions of the ordinary world of false order.
Here's a comedy sketch that springs to mind which explores this idea:
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023