Philosophy

Chat about anything your heart desires here, just be civil. Factual or scientific questions about philosophy go here (e.g. "When was Socrates born?"), and so most homework help questions belong here. Note, posts in the off-topic section will not increase new members post counts. This includes the introductions and feedback sections.
Wizard22
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Re: Philosophy

Post by Wizard22 »

LuckyR wrote: July 29th, 2022, 2:06 pmWe're in agreement that drug addiction is a bad thing. My point is that it generally is a symptom not the cause of a wasted life's potential.
I agree, so it begs-the-question, what is the root cause of drug abuse, homelessness, wasted life, etc?

I point to 'Demoralization' as a general answer. Many children, teenagers, and young adults are 'broken' while young, ideals, hopes, goals shattered. They are taught pessimism, skepticism, and hopelessness. Many parents 'teach' this. The State institutions also 'teach' this. What say you?
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LuckyR
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Re: Philosophy

Post by LuckyR »

Wizard22 wrote: August 1st, 2022, 3:29 am
LuckyR wrote: July 29th, 2022, 2:06 pmWe're in agreement that drug addiction is a bad thing. My point is that it generally is a symptom not the cause of a wasted life's potential.
I agree, so it begs-the-question, what is the root cause of drug abuse, homelessness, wasted life, etc?

I point to 'Demoralization' as a general answer. Many children, teenagers, and young adults are 'broken' while young, ideals, hopes, goals shattered. They are taught pessimism, skepticism, and hopelessness. Many parents 'teach' this. The State institutions also 'teach' this. What say you?
I agree that such cases exist and act exactly as you describe.

However my preference is to look earlier in the process. Specifically that everyone experiences bad stuff, many folks experience extremely terrible stuff. What determines the outcome is a combination of the stuff (what you described) and each individual's ability to handle stuff (what I focused on originally).
"As usual... it depends."
stevie
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Re: Philosophy

Post by stevie »

Wizard22 wrote: July 8th, 2022, 3:30 am I pose to you all three "simple" questions:


1. What is the Meaning of Life?

2. Does God Exist (and How)?

3. What is the Nature of Reality?
Oh dear ...

Nevertheless:
Wizard22 wrote: July 8th, 2022, 3:30 am 1. What is the Meaning of Life?
It's the meaning which an individual that longs for meaning succeeds to assign to its life.

Wizard22 wrote: July 8th, 2022, 3:30 am 2. Does God Exist (and How)?
"God" may be an object of faith, whereas "existence" and "non-existence" are concepts of ontological philosophy.


Wizard22 wrote: July 8th, 2022, 3:30 am 3. What is the Nature of Reality?
"Nature of sth." and "reality of sth." often are used as synonyms, so that your question doesn't make sense to me.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
Wizard22
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Re: Philosophy

Post by Wizard22 »

stevie wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 11:07 amOh dear ...
I feel that.

Everytime I go to a philosophy forum and ask the Meaning of Life, and everytime I get "the meaning of life is to live" type of answers, a flood of suicidal and intrusive thoughts come to mind.


It's demoralizing, to see how uninspired and mentally deadened Westerners are, or have become.

I can't tell if the West has always been this Meaningless and Nihilistic, or if this is a historically recent phenomenon.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Philosophy

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Wizard22 wrote: July 18th, 2022, 3:32 am I advocate for an Objective analysis of Meaning of Life.
I assume, since you have capitalised "Objective", that you use it to mean 'mind-independent correspondence with that which actually is'. If so, then your ambition seems quite impossible, given that Objective Reality is inaccessible to humans.
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stevie
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Re: Philosophy

Post by stevie »

Wizard22 wrote: August 5th, 2022, 5:15 am
stevie wrote: August 2nd, 2022, 11:07 amOh dear ...
I feel that.

Everytime I go to a philosophy forum and ask the Meaning of Life, and everytime I get "the meaning of life is to live" type of answers, a flood of suicidal and intrusive thoughts come to mind.


It's demoralizing, to see how uninspired and mentally deadened Westerners are, or have become.

I can't tell if the West has always been this Meaningless and Nihilistic, or if this is a historically recent phenomenon.
Nevertheless I've made the effort to answer all your question from a philosophical perspective. But maybe these answers are not to your liking? If so I can't help.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
Wizard22
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Re: Philosophy

Post by Wizard22 »

If Objective Reality were not accessible then it wouldn't be "Real". I think rationality, logic, and deduction are used to access Objective Reality. Existence exists, beyond human knowledge. Existence doesn't require you or I, to exist. If you fall asleep, the universe doesn't disappear with your unconsciousness.

That said,

It's pretty obvious that people are holding back what they really believe about the Meaning of Life when they say "The Meaning of Life, is to live" or "the meaning of a dog, is a dog". You can do better than stating the obvious. If you want to be honest, and say you don't know, then go right ahead. At least it's honest. Many people presume to know, but have doubts about what they believe.

Religious people are more convinced, about their Meaning of Life, which they believe comes from God. At the very least, with them, with the religious fundamentalist, they can give concise, relatively clear answers, by compared to what we see in this thread. Maybe non-religious people don't know the Meaning of Life. Maybe non-religious people don't have a Meaning of Life. Maybe, being non-religious, your life literally, phystically, spiritually, has NO MEANING.

I'm open to that probability. In fact, I take people at their word. Many people, simply do NOT have a meaning of life. Their lives are meaningless. They are Nihilists. They don't believe in meaning, at all, in the first place. Maybe that's what we're working with, here?
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Philosophy

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Wizard22 wrote: August 6th, 2022, 6:18 am If Objective Reality were not accessible then it wouldn't be "Real". I think rationality, logic, and deduction are used to access Objective Reality. Existence exists, beyond human knowledge. Existence doesn't require you or I, to exist. If you fall asleep, the universe doesn't disappear with your unconsciousness.
You miss the point. Objective Reality is inaccessible, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist! Objective Reality is as real — and existent — as you can get, but it is inaccessible to us. Because we cannot have knowing access to it, we can't use it as a standard for comparison. I.e., we can't claim that something — anything — is Objectively True because we can't verify or falsify that claim, rendering it meaningless.

Also, yes, of course Objective Reality is mind-independent: it is what it is, independent of our thoughts, opinions, and beliefs, or even of our own presence or existence. This has nothing to do with its inaccessibility.

P.S. "Existence" does not exist; only things exist.
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Wizard22
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Re: Philosophy

Post by Wizard22 »

It's a matter of degree.

Objective Reality is accessible to some, but not most. Again, the methods of accessing it are through rationality, logic, and deduction. Humans can take what we know of Earth, Gravity, our Solar System, and deduce that other planets and solar systems throughout the Universe, act the same ways with the same types of laws of physics.

Science represents the degree to which Humans can become "objective", through empiricism.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Philosophy

Post by Sy Borg »

Wizard22 wrote: August 6th, 2022, 6:18 amReligious people are more convinced, about their Meaning of Life, which they believe comes from God. At the very least, with them, with the religious fundamentalist, they can give concise, relatively clear answers, by compared to what we see in this thread.
If you wish to be told simple nonsense, no doubt fundamentalists can oblige. It seems you prefer this to people pondering the subject without pretending to know everything.

Note that concise and clear answers are the appeal of dictators, who baselessly reduce the complex to the simple for public consumption. Clear and concise answers are provided by advertisers too, although you will find that the missing detail ultimately matters, eg. when your car engine keeps stalling, even though the vehicle appeared to be perfect on TV.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Philosophy

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Wizard22 wrote: July 18th, 2022, 3:32 am I advocate for an Objective analysis of Meaning of Life.
Pattern-chaser wrote: August 5th, 2022, 11:52 am I assume, since you have capitalised "Objective", that you use it to mean 'mind-independent correspondence with that which actually is'. If so, then your ambition seems quite impossible, given that Objective Reality is inaccessible to humans.
Wizard22 wrote: August 6th, 2022, 6:18 am If Objective Reality were not accessible then it wouldn't be "Real". I think rationality, logic, and deduction are used to access Objective Reality. Existence exists, beyond human knowledge. Existence doesn't require you or I, to exist. If you fall asleep, the universe doesn't disappear with your unconsciousness.
Pattern-chaser wrote: August 6th, 2022, 7:26 am You miss the point. Objective Reality is inaccessible, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist! Objective Reality is as real — and existent — as you can get, but it is inaccessible to us. Because we cannot have knowing access to it, we can't use it as a standard for comparison. I.e., we can't claim that something — anything — is Objectively True because we can't verify or falsify that claim, rendering it meaningless.
Wizard22 wrote: August 6th, 2022, 7:38 am Objective Reality is accessible to some, but not most.
No, it isn't. Objective Reality is inaccessible — completely inaccessible — to any and all humans. [I.e., it isn't a "matter of degree".] The only thing we can know — as opposed to believe or suspect — is that Objective Reality exists. But I've started at the end of what I intended to say. The introduction is this: How do these "some" (people) access Objective Reality? What means or technique can/do they use for this purpose?


Wizard22 wrote: August 6th, 2022, 7:38 am Again, the methods of accessing it are through rationality, logic, and deduction. Humans can take what we know of Earth, Gravity, our Solar System, and deduce that other planets and solar systems throughout the Universe, act the same ways with the same types of laws of physics.

Science represents the degree to which Humans can become "objective", through empiricism.
Sorry, you've just answered my question (above). OK. ... But Objectivity — 'mind-independent correspondence with that which actually is' — cannot be confirmed (or denied) via "rationality, logic, and deduction". For example, if I thought that we might be brains-in-vats, how would you use these tools to confirm or refute my suspicion? [Remembering that the 'reality' we experience as brains-in-vats is completely identical to what we would experience in a world where 'reality' actually is what our senses show to us.]
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stevie
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Re: Philosophy

Post by stevie »

Wizard22 wrote: August 6th, 2022, 6:18 am I think rationality, logic, and deduction are used to access Objective Reality.
If that is so then why do you ask your questions here instead of accessing objective reality?
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
Wizard22
Posts: 40
Joined: July 8th, 2022, 3:14 am

Re: Philosophy

Post by Wizard22 »

Sy Borg wrote: August 6th, 2022, 4:57 pmIf you wish to be told simple nonsense, no doubt fundamentalists can oblige. It seems you prefer this to people pondering the subject without pretending to know everything.

Note that concise and clear answers are the appeal of dictators, who baselessly reduce the complex to the simple for public consumption. Clear and concise answers are provided by advertisers too, although you will find that the missing detail ultimately matters, eg. when your car engine keeps stalling, even though the vehicle appeared to be perfect on TV.
I should be more appreciative of stevie, at least he somewhat answered the question, insufficient as it might be.

"The meaning of life, is to live"

I think this suffices most people, but, it shouldn't. People deserve more. And it is the duty of Philosophers, to provide more.
Wizard22
Posts: 40
Joined: July 8th, 2022, 3:14 am

Re: Philosophy

Post by Wizard22 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: August 7th, 2022, 11:42 amSorry, you've just answered my question (above). OK. ... But Objectivity — 'mind-independent correspondence with that which actually is' — cannot be confirmed (or denied) via "rationality, logic, and deduction". For example, if I thought that we might be brains-in-vats, how would you use these tools to confirm or refute my suspicion? [Remembering that the 'reality' we experience as brains-in-vats is completely identical to what we would experience in a world where 'reality' actually is what our senses show to us.]
Objectivity would indicate that predictions, analysis, and answers/solutions, must correspond directly to Reality. Therefore, if "brain in a vat" theory were even remotely probable, then there would be clear and obvious indications for such a theorem. Sadly, there's not. There's no significant or convincing reasons or causes for most people to believe in that theory.

You can claim that Santa Clause is real, if you want to....

If that's your argument, then go ahead. I don't think it's a good argument. Even with Theories of Gravity, of General Relativity, of Conservation of Energy, Etc. all of these have different degrees of believability. Is Brain-in-a-Vat theory relevant? Is it scientific? Is it empirical? Or is it, simply, subjective and solipsistic?


In short, you're not making a good case for a complete disconnection from 'Objective' Reality.

Just like saying, "Well...Santa Clause *COULD BE* real!" is also not going to convince many adults.
Wizard22
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Joined: July 8th, 2022, 3:14 am

Re: Philosophy

Post by Wizard22 »

stevie wrote: August 7th, 2022, 1:30 pmIf that is so then why do you ask your questions here instead of accessing objective reality?
Because there might be Philosophers who have better access to the Objective Realm...than me.

If there are any on this forum, then we'll see, won't we?
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