Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
- Sculptor1
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Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
However, there is a lot wrong with how things are going at the moment. There are really good and creative ways to make sure minorities are represented. At the moment there is a icky tendency for a sort of pedagogic high mindedness which is being generally rejected as absurd by the public. Even people who are full square behind the idea of extending representation and giving, say, black actors a level playing ground with white.
But there is a growing problem which undermines the effort. In RIngs of Power for example as in other programmes (eg Wheel of Time) which have several examples of white characters with black children and black parents with white children. When we watch a drama we enter into a contract whereby the audience suspend their disbelief and pretend that what we are watching is real. This is most important with fantasy programs. So why not cast Morgan Freeman as the child or even wife of a character played by Emma Watson? WHy not? Because it would be ridiculous! It would stop you in your tracks and the spell of belief would be broken. So why is the daughter of the HIgh King of Numenor(white) and black women - a great performance by the way, but an example of bad casting since she simply does not look like her father in a very profound way.
So why not make the entire family of Isildur black instead? The point is Amazon are imposing a moral point virtue signalling in the most exhibitionist way. When I watch a series on Netflix or Amazon, I am pleased to see a range of different human groups represented, but I do not want it to be in my face to the degree that it makes the drama look idiotic.
- LuckyR
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
- Sculptor1
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
I've not seen Hamilton and I do not think it would interest me.
But I would think that Lin-Manuel Miranda is making exactly the same sort of pedagogic point. Not only choosing actors for diversity, but making an exhibition of his personal sympathies in the is respect; virtue signalling in the most gross way.
If having Lawrence Olivier playing Othello is regarded as a bad idea, then how is this any better?
I think the long term danger of these absurdities is the denial that racism ever existed. Bu portraying worlds in which everyone is colour-blind is a pretense that denies the truths of history. I do not see that as any kind of solution.
Then on the other end of the spectrum we have all black universities, all black orchestras, all "jewish" prizes for science and literature. These are examples of colour bars. For racial equality, and racial harmony what is needed is truth and equality. If racial-bars are evil as they were in the South South Africa, and in Israel then they must be bad in all instances.
Having an all black cast for Hamlet, or Julius Caesar is an admission of defeat, and a new racism.
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
Seriously? So Harvard (the most prestigious school on the planet) can be an all white school for 234 years, and you're upset because the #841 college in the nation is "historically black"?Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 26th, 2022, 6:19 amI've not seen Hamilton and I do not think it would interest me.
But I would think that Lin-Manuel Miranda is making exactly the same sort of pedagogic point. Not only choosing actors for diversity, but making an exhibition of his personal sympathies in the is respect; virtue signalling in the most gross way.
If having Lawrence Olivier playing Othello is regarded as a bad idea, then how is this any better?
I think the long term danger of these absurdities is the denial that racism ever existed. Bu portraying worlds in which everyone is colour-blind is a pretense that denies the truths of history. I do not see that as any kind of solution.
Then on the other end of the spectrum we have all black universities, all black orchestras, all "jewish" prizes for science and literature. These are examples of colour bars. For racial equality, and racial harmony what is needed is truth and equality. If racial-bars are evil as they were in the South South Africa, and in Israel then they must be bad in all instances.
Having an all black cast for Hamlet, or Julius Caesar is an admission of defeat, and a new racism.
- Sculptor1
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
Two things here are wrong.LuckyR wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 2:11 amSeriously? So Harvard (the most prestigious school on the planet) can be an all white school for 234 years, and you're upset because the #841 college in the nation is "historically black"?Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 26th, 2022, 6:19 amI've not seen Hamilton and I do not think it would interest me.
But I would think that Lin-Manuel Miranda is making exactly the same sort of pedagogic point. Not only choosing actors for diversity, but making an exhibition of his personal sympathies in the is respect; virtue signalling in the most gross way.
If having Lawrence Olivier playing Othello is regarded as a bad idea, then how is this any better?
I think the long term danger of these absurdities is the denial that racism ever existed. Bu portraying worlds in which everyone is colour-blind is a pretense that denies the truths of history. I do not see that as any kind of solution.
Then on the other end of the spectrum we have all black universities, all black orchestras, all "jewish" prizes for science and literature. These are examples of colour bars. For racial equality, and racial harmony what is needed is truth and equality. If racial-bars are evil as they were in the South South Africa, and in Israel then they must be bad in all instances.
Having an all black cast for Hamlet, or Julius Caesar is an admission of defeat, and a new racism.
1)- So are you saying there was nothing wrong with Harvard being all black for 234 year? (FYI it was 229 years)?
and
2) Harvard graduated its first black student in 1865. WHich is pretty early given that America was a late shower in emancipation. That is only 3 years after emancipation.
If you think it was wrong of Harvard to have a colour bar then why would you accept a white colour bar elsewhere?
It makes you a racist.
- LuckyR
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
So many things to address.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 4:25 amTwo things here are wrong.LuckyR wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 2:11 amSeriously? So Harvard (the most prestigious school on the planet) can be an all white school for 234 years, and you're upset because the #841 college in the nation is "historically black"?Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 26th, 2022, 6:19 amI've not seen Hamilton and I do not think it would interest me.
But I would think that Lin-Manuel Miranda is making exactly the same sort of pedagogic point. Not only choosing actors for diversity, but making an exhibition of his personal sympathies in the is respect; virtue signalling in the most gross way.
If having Lawrence Olivier playing Othello is regarded as a bad idea, then how is this any better?
I think the long term danger of these absurdities is the denial that racism ever existed. Bu portraying worlds in which everyone is colour-blind is a pretense that denies the truths of history. I do not see that as any kind of solution.
Then on the other end of the spectrum we have all black universities, all black orchestras, all "jewish" prizes for science and literature. These are examples of colour bars. For racial equality, and racial harmony what is needed is truth and equality. If racial-bars are evil as they were in the South South Africa, and in Israel then they must be bad in all instances.
Having an all black cast for Hamlet, or Julius Caesar is an admission of defeat, and a new racism.
1)- So are you saying there was nothing wrong with Harvard being all black for 234 year? (FYI it was 229 years)?
and
2) Harvard graduated its first black student in 1865. WHich is pretty early given that America was a late shower in emancipation. That is only 3 years after emancipation.
If you think it was wrong of Harvard to have a colour bar then why would you accept a white colour bar elsewhere?
It makes you a racist.
First, Harvard had ZERO black students for over two centuries. Spelman (the highest ranked historically black college) has white students right now. Not many, but even a simpleton can appreciate that they don't exclude white students... because they have white students.
Second, and more germane IMO Harvard has many aspects to their common reputation. And being an all white school for more time than they have been integrated is NOT one of them. Meanwhile, historically black colleges are labeled as racist routinely, as evidenced by this thread, for example. Both are private institutions and as such I'm sure GE Morton would declare that they can do whatever they want. However, I'm just wondering why the (truly) historically all white Harvard generally avoids that reputation, yet historically MAJORITY (not exclusively) black Spelman is commonly criticized.
That racially based difference in treatment is the racism.
- Sculptor1
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
The USA had ZERO free black persons until 1862. What's your point?LuckyR wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 10:06 pmSo many things to address.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 4:25 amTwo things here are wrong.LuckyR wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 2:11 amSeriously? So Harvard (the most prestigious school on the planet) can be an all white school for 234 years, and you're upset because the #841 college in the nation is "historically black"?Sculptor1 wrote: ↑September 26th, 2022, 6:19 am
I've not seen Hamilton and I do not think it would interest me.
But I would think that Lin-Manuel Miranda is making exactly the same sort of pedagogic point. Not only choosing actors for diversity, but making an exhibition of his personal sympathies in the is respect; virtue signalling in the most gross way.
If having Lawrence Olivier playing Othello is regarded as a bad idea, then how is this any better?
I think the long term danger of these absurdities is the denial that racism ever existed. Bu portraying worlds in which everyone is colour-blind is a pretense that denies the truths of history. I do not see that as any kind of solution.
Then on the other end of the spectrum we have all black universities, all black orchestras, all "jewish" prizes for science and literature. These are examples of colour bars. For racial equality, and racial harmony what is needed is truth and equality. If racial-bars are evil as they were in the South South Africa, and in Israel then they must be bad in all instances.
Having an all black cast for Hamlet, or Julius Caesar is an admission of defeat, and a new racism.
1)- So are you saying there was nothing wrong with Harvard being all black for 234 year? (FYI it was 229 years)?
and
2) Harvard graduated its first black student in 1865. WHich is pretty early given that America was a late shower in emancipation. That is only 3 years after emancipation.
If you think it was wrong of Harvard to have a colour bar then why would you accept a white colour bar elsewhere?
It makes you a racist.
First, Harvard had ZERO black students for over two centuries. Spelman (the highest ranked historically black college) has white students right now. Not many, but even a simpleton can appreciate that they don't exclude white students... because they have white students.
And at the same time there was no Spelman. So you are not really making any kind of comparison here. Just two disconnected facts.
THe solution to racism is not more racism. You have no grounds for claiming Harvard as racist when SPelman is racist. And whilst all black colleges exist, the excuse from "white" colleges is to direct black people to the black colleges and white racist will concentrate in the "white" colleges. This is simply a perpetuation of racism.
Second, and more germane IMO Harvard has many aspects to their common reputation. And being an all white school for more time than they have been integrated is NOT one of them. Meanwhile, historically black colleges are labeled as racist routinely, as evidenced by this thread, for example. Both are private institutions and as such I'm sure GE Morton would declare that they can do whatever they want. However, I'm just wondering why the (truly) historically all white Harvard generally avoids that reputation, yet historically MAJORITY (not exclusively) black Spelman is commonly criticized.
That racially based difference in treatment is the racism.
- LuckyR
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
So much misinformation and clumsy sleight of hand here.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2022, 10:17 amThe USA had ZERO free black persons until 1862. What's your point?LuckyR wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 10:06 pmSo many things to address.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 4:25 amTwo things here are wrong.
1)- So are you saying there was nothing wrong with Harvard being all black for 234 year? (FYI it was 229 years)?
and
2) Harvard graduated its first black student in 1865. WHich is pretty early given that America was a late shower in emancipation. That is only 3 years after emancipation.
If you think it was wrong of Harvard to have a colour bar then why would you accept a white colour bar elsewhere?
It makes you a racist.
First, Harvard had ZERO black students for over two centuries. Spelman (the highest ranked historically black college) has white students right now. Not many, but even a simpleton can appreciate that they don't exclude white students... because they have white students.
And at the same time there was no Spelman. So you are not really making any kind of comparison here. Just two disconnected facts.THe solution to racism is not more racism. You have no grounds for claiming Harvard as racist when SPelman is racist. And whilst all black colleges exist, the excuse from "white" colleges is to direct black people to the black colleges and white racist will concentrate in the "white" colleges. This is simply a perpetuation of racism.
Second, and more germane IMO Harvard has many aspects to their common reputation. And being an all white school for more time than they have been integrated is NOT one of them. Meanwhile, historically black colleges are labeled as racist routinely, as evidenced by this thread, for example. Both are private institutions and as such I'm sure GE Morton would declare that they can do whatever they want. However, I'm just wondering why the (truly) historically all white Harvard generally avoids that reputation, yet historically MAJORITY (not exclusively) black Spelman is commonly criticized.
That racially based difference in treatment is the racism.
First Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1783 (not 1862). The first black college grad graduated in 1823 (almost 50 years before Harvard did).
Harvard was all white. Spelman is NOT all black.
Yet Spelman is commonly accused of being "racist" and Harvard commonly gets a pass. Why?
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
Strawman.LuckyR wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2022, 1:07 pmSo much misinformation and clumsy sleight of hand here.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 2nd, 2022, 10:17 amThe USA had ZERO free black persons until 1862. What's your point?LuckyR wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 10:06 pmSo many things to address.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 1st, 2022, 4:25 am
Two things here are wrong.
1)- So are you saying there was nothing wrong with Harvard being all black for 234 year? (FYI it was 229 years)?
and
2) Harvard graduated its first black student in 1865. WHich is pretty early given that America was a late shower in emancipation. That is only 3 years after emancipation.
If you think it was wrong of Harvard to have a colour bar then why would you accept a white colour bar elsewhere?
It makes you a racist.
First, Harvard had ZERO black students for over two centuries. Spelman (the highest ranked historically black college) has white students right now. Not many, but even a simpleton can appreciate that they don't exclude white students... because they have white students.
And at the same time there was no Spelman. So you are not really making any kind of comparison here. Just two disconnected facts.THe solution to racism is not more racism. You have no grounds for claiming Harvard as racist when SPelman is racist. And whilst all black colleges exist, the excuse from "white" colleges is to direct black people to the black colleges and white racist will concentrate in the "white" colleges. This is simply a perpetuation of racism.
Second, and more germane IMO Harvard has many aspects to their common reputation. And being an all white school for more time than they have been integrated is NOT one of them. Meanwhile, historically black colleges are labeled as racist routinely, as evidenced by this thread, for example. Both are private institutions and as such I'm sure GE Morton would declare that they can do whatever they want. However, I'm just wondering why the (truly) historically all white Harvard generally avoids that reputation, yet historically MAJORITY (not exclusively) black Spelman is commonly criticized.
That racially based difference in treatment is the racism.
First Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1783 (not 1862). The first black college grad graduated in 1823 (almost 50 years before Harvard did).
Harvard was all white. Spelman is NOT all black.
Yet Spelman is commonly accused of being "racist" and Harvard commonly gets a pass. Why?
- LuckyR
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
"Why do Latinos have the ALMA awards? There isn't a white person acting award show"
"Uummm... they're called the Oscars..."
- Sculptor1
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
Yes, and this is a sign of failure and an acceptance of racism.
And the more we have black awards and jewish awards etc. the more racism is reified, validated and supported.
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
Though there have been so recent fallow years, t is my view that as a percentage of the black population, black people are probably over-represented at the oscars, over the years.
https://www.imdb.com/list/ls500201040/
https://www.theroot.com/every-black-act ... 1848646024
- LuckyR
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
Over-represented, eh ? Well, 2022 was the 94th Academy awards, so your first link shows 34 blacks who won for actor/actress, supporting actor/actress, director, best picture, screenplay and soundtrack. 8 categories. 5 categories x 94 years plus 3 categories x 85 years is 725 total awards. Since blacks are 11% of the population, you'd expect 79 winners, so the 34 actual winners are less than half of what you'd expect statistically.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:26 amThough there have been so recent fallow years, t is my view that as a percentage of the black population, black people are probably over-represented at the oscars, over the years.
https://www.imdb.com/list/ls500201040/
https://www.theroot.com/every-black-act ... 1848646024
Don't you get it? There wouldn't be an ALMA award show if the Academy awards would have had Latino nominees/winners. If the Oscars are all white where exactly are Latino actors supposed to be recognized? It's disingenuous to exclude groups from recognition, then bellyache when they create their own format. You're not the only game in town.
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
When you have awards for black only they are more likely to find less representation in the mainstream.LuckyR wrote: ↑October 5th, 2022, 3:07 amOver-represented, eh ? Well, 2022 was the 94th Academy awards, so your first link shows 34 blacks who won for actor/actress, supporting actor/actress, director, best picture, screenplay and soundtrack. 8 categories. 5 categories x 94 years plus 3 categories x 85 years is 725 total awards. Since blacks are 11% of the population, you'd expect 79 winners, so the 34 actual winners are less than half of what you'd expect statistically.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:26 amThough there have been so recent fallow years, t is my view that as a percentage of the black population, black people are probably over-represented at the oscars, over the years.
https://www.imdb.com/list/ls500201040/
https://www.theroot.com/every-black-act ... 1848646024
Don't you get it? There wouldn't be an ALMA award show if the Academy awards would have had Latino nominees/winners. If the Oscars are all white where exactly are Latino actors supposed to be recognized? It's disingenuous to exclude groups from recognition, then bellyache when they create their own format. You're not the only game in town.
That's what division looks like.
- LuckyR
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Re: Black Mermaids and WOke backlash
Your timing is backwards. The ALMA awards were forced on Latinos by the lack of representation at the Oscars. You're acting like the ALMAs caused the lack of representation at the Oscars.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 5th, 2022, 6:26 amWhen you have awards for black only they are more likely to find less representation in the mainstream.LuckyR wrote: ↑October 5th, 2022, 3:07 amOver-represented, eh ? Well, 2022 was the 94th Academy awards, so your first link shows 34 blacks who won for actor/actress, supporting actor/actress, director, best picture, screenplay and soundtrack. 8 categories. 5 categories x 94 years plus 3 categories x 85 years is 725 total awards. Since blacks are 11% of the population, you'd expect 79 winners, so the 34 actual winners are less than half of what you'd expect statistically.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑October 4th, 2022, 5:26 amThough there have been so recent fallow years, t is my view that as a percentage of the black population, black people are probably over-represented at the oscars, over the years.
https://www.imdb.com/list/ls500201040/
https://www.theroot.com/every-black-act ... 1848646024
Don't you get it? There wouldn't be an ALMA award show if the Academy awards would have had Latino nominees/winners. If the Oscars are all white where exactly are Latino actors supposed to be recognized? It's disingenuous to exclude groups from recognition, then bellyache when they create their own format. You're not the only game in town.
That's what division looks like.
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