What is loneliness exactly?

[Above us only sky]

What is loneliness exactly? Is it simply a need to be with people? Can loneliness permanent to human existence and it can not be eliminated?

As we all know, an introverted person usually does not have many friends, then does it mean an introverted person has to endure more share of loneliness? If this is so, then how to not feel lonely even if that person is alone all the time?

[Sanchez]

I would say that loneliness is the desire for more human contact or deeper contact (since it is possible to feel alone even when surrounded by people). There's no objective measure for this, since it depends on how much contact you desire. A recluse can be completely content with being alone. There's a difference between loneliness and solitude. With solitude, one is content with being alone. I've experienced both and it can go from one to the other pretty quickly.

Can it be eliminated? This depends on the person. There probably are a lot of folks who never really feel any significant loneliness. For others, it can be chronic, but I sure hope that there is hope. I guess one way to feel less lonely is to have meaningful solitary activities. Nature photography does that for me. I think I would prefer to do that alone even if I were the most popular person on Earth.

[Ormond]

What is loneliness exactly?

First, it's helpful to observe that loneliness has likely been experienced in every time and place. If true, then this rules out purely cultural factors, which of course vary widely, and should guide us to seek out a more fundamental source.

Imho, the source of human loneliness is what all humans are made of, thought. That's why loneliness is universal, all humans are made of thought.

Thought operates by division, it's inherently divisive in nature. Being divisive, thought creates a human experience of reality as being divided between "me" and "everything else". Obviously, this is ripe ground for loneliness to grow in. Fear is the other very common ailment arising from this perspective of reality.

Is it simply a need to be with people?

No, it's a need to transcend the experience of feeling divided from everything else. Bonding with people is a common method of overcoming loneliness and isolation, but people are not the only thing we can bond with. As Sanchez suggests, nature is a common bonding agent for many, and given that it's everywhere all the time, it's a handy escape route for those who generally find human beings to be problematic.

Can loneliness permanent to human existence and it can not be eliminated?

Because loneliness arises from thought, and because we need thought to survive, some degree of psychic isolation will be with us all our lives. That's the bad news. The remedy here is to accept the price tag of thought along with all it's miraculous benefits in as mature and good natured manner as possible.

The good news is that the psychic isolation can be lowered or eliminated at any time, and in any place, by better managing thought. To the degree we lower the volume of thought, loneliness and all our other problems recede. Situations remain but "problems", our reaction to situations, can be managed or even erased.

There's no need to believe anybody about this, as anyone can test managing thought for themselves.

A very common problem here is that most people aren't serious enough about their loneliness to actually test managing thought, preferring to blame situations, blame others, complain to be complaining, whine to be whining, suffer to be suffering, and various other fantasy victim poses. These fantasy victim poses also arise from the perspective of reality as being divided between "me" and "everything else", that is, they too arise from the nature of thought.

The cliche that seems to fit here is, one can lead a horse to water, but one can't make the horse drink.

As we all know, an introverted person usually does not have many friends, then does it mean an introverted person has to endure more share of loneliness?

No, the person who is allergic to human beings (a fairly rational allergy to have) should focus on finding other things to bond with. It's bonding that matters, not people specifically.

If this is so, then how to not feel lonely even if that person is alone all the time?

The lonely person should first ask themselves if they are willing to pay some price to relieve or end their loneliness. I say this because most people are not willing to pay a price, and that's why they remain lonely.

If the lonely person can not identify any price tag they are willing to pay, if they are not willing to make any meaningful changes in their life, then the rational thing to do would be to accept loneliness as a way of life. They shouldn't further torment themselves looking for a solution if the fact is that they don't actually want one.

Nature photography does that for me. I think I would prefer to do that alone even if I were the most popular person on Earth.

Although I have given up on trying to squeeze nature in to a tiny camera lens, I'm with Sanchez on bonding with nature. I'd rather spend dawn to dusk hiking alone in the north Florida woods than being the most popular person on Earth. Once one learns how to bond with that which is always there, loneliness stops being a problem.

[Above us only sky]

By the way, are there some tips on how to make friends? I find it very difficult: When I go to a bar or a cafe shop all the people there are strangers, when I go to a park it is also the case, everyone has his or her own business. Making friends is so difficult.

-- Updated April 27th, 2016, 7:18 am to add the following --

I once asked a teacher of mine ( who is the most popular teacher on campus and has many friends ) I asked her "how to be popular and have many friends?" she said no matter how many friends a person can have, that person is lonely deep inside, and this loneliness will be with a person for a whole life, then she said something but for some reasons unknown to me she stopped in the middle, "the secret of being popular is merely ..."

I think I now understand what the inconvenient truth she did not want to say, to let everyone like you is to make yourself useful for everyone's own business.

but does it have to be like this?

[Belinda]

Above Us Only Sky, I've found that the surest way to make a friend is to choose someone who lives or works close by, for the sake of convenience. Sometimes you have to accept that they have a resident partner, but not all couples behave like Siamese twins.

Then you have to make an effort to ask the individual whom you have chosen to accompany you to whatever, a cafe, a pub, a country walk, to discuss a film, a book, or how to do grow roses or whatever you happen to be interested in. To help them with their visit to the doctor, to the dentist, help with homework, help with their gardening. Whatever. Then there is some give and take, and off you go, you have a friend, or a chum anyway.

There is the ever present risk that the person you choose won't want to know you better, but unless you are famously attractive that risk is the same for everyone. If it doesn't work simply try again.

People generally like someone who can do something for them from simple company to helping with some project or interest.

I hope this helps, Sky.

[Ormond]

By the way, are there some tips on how to make friends?

Are you willing to do things that you aren't already doing?

As example, imagine you are shopping in a store or online and you see something you'd like to own. You look at the price tag. You have that amount. Are you willing to pay the price, or not?

Whichever you choose, it's not a right/wrong, good/bad judgment thing. It's your choice to make, and you're entitled to whatever choice you prefer. Buying the item could be a good choice. Not buying the item could be a good choice.

What's probably not a good choice is to spend a lot of time fueling your desire for an item you're not willing to pay for. This might be called the "cake and eat it too" syndrome, one of the most common sources of human suffering. We want X, but we want it for free, a recipe for suffering.

To avoid paying for whatever it is, we delay, we dream, we procrastinate, and we suffer in wanting something that we don't have. We think we have avoided paying the price for X, but this suffering becomes the price we pay for not making a clear decision. And so we hopefully learn that any way we turn, any decision we make, any road we take, there is a price tag involved.

And so before members start offering tips on making new friends, it may be helpful for you to first be clear within yourself about whether you want new friends enough to pay some price for them. If you are willing to change and do things you aren't already doing, you can probably think of those things as well as we can.

I hope this isn't too harsh, but I've read this kind of thread 2 million times over the last twenty years. Somebody asks for tips, they never use any of them, and then we see them asking the same question over again at some later point. In such cases, the poster is looking for "something for nothing" and we are not helping them by fueling their fantasy that such a deal is possible.

I have no idea if this is the case here, and hope it is not. To show it's not, how about listing all the friend making strategies you're already engaged in, and listing some new things you'd be willing to try. How about committing to come back next week/month to tell us which of our tips you tried and how it turned out.

-- Updated April 28th, 2016, 8:21 am to add the following --

People generally like someone who can do something for them....

Yes, that's it. We tend to obscure this transactional reality of life with all kinds of complications and diplomacy etc, but in the end it's pretty simple, we're all looking for people who can give us whatever it is we want.

What most of us want most of the time is support for our personal story, ie. ego.

As example, part of my story is that I'm an insightful articulate poster, and thus I tend to gravitate towards anyone who will feed that story. People who argue with my posts are ok too, so long as I can eventually defeat them, thus feeding my story by other means.

In the end, the bottom line, the vast majority of content on all forums and the rest of social media, and real life too, is just folks looking for fuel for their personal story.

We have an old friend who posts a new photo of herself on her Facebook page every day, and then awaits the praise "you're looking so good!" that comes in from her followers. She doesn't actually look good at all, which is probably why she invests so much energy in having her story reinforced by others. She's not doing anything wrong, it's just life.

Philosophy and making friends do not go very well together. As example, my thinking/writing philosophy is summarized by this little cliche...

If the things we want to hear, could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.

And so, being generally socially clueless, but sincere about philosophy, I go around the net telling folks that which they don't want to hear. Is this good philosophy? Yes, sometimes it is. Is it a good way to make friends? Um, no way Jose.

Life can be very simple. The best way to make friends is to tell people that which they want to hear.

[Above us only sky]

You sounds a bit like Shopenhauer. in Your opinion, what price do we have to take to make friends?

For me, The prices include my free time I spent on my friends, also I sometimes have to hide my personality. I totally agree with you, Whether it is to make Friends or not is totally our choice. It can be a hard choice.

[Ormond]

You sounds a bit like Shopenhauer

WTF, you're comparing me to Shopenhauer??? Why you #$%^@ SOB, you can forget about being friends with me!! (Not a Shopenhauer fan obviously)

in Your opinion, what price do we have to take to make friends?

Well, obviously something more or other than what we're currently doing. My point above was, before we talk about what to do, it might be helpful to determine whether we're willing to do anything that is risky, painful, inconvenient, time consuming etc. Is the problem that we don't know what to do, or that we don't actually want to do anything? If the later, tips from others are unlikely to help.

For me, The prices include my free time I spent on my friends,

Yes, of course. And now we come to the question, are the real life friends as interesting and rewarding an experience as something else we might do with the time, such as video games or forum blowharding etc? Can the friends compete?

In my life, to be honest, I've found that they often can't. Like my fellow forum members, I like in depth conversations on abstract nerd topics. I find this very engaging and can literally go all day and half the night.

But most people in the real world feel, as is their right, that 2 minutes or less is the appropriate amount of time to spend on philosophical type topics. But most folks are happy to spend endless hours on wandering random chit chat about the mundane mechanics of everyday life, a topic which to be honest, bores me to tears. So here I am, with my imaginary virtual friends whose faces and names I know not.

also I sometimes have to hide my personality.

This is a completely routine procedure everybody engages in in the real world. Such hiding is far less necessary in the virtual realm, which makes the virtual realm more honest, at the cost of being less pretty.

I totally agree with you, Whether it is to make Friends or not is totally our choice. It can be a hard choice.

This might simplify the choice. Please forgive me for reading between the lines here, perhaps totally inaccurately, but I get the sense you are a young single man. If true, you might not need multiple friends, but just one really good friend, who is of the gender of your preference.

That's how it was for me. I was very involved with friends in teens and twenties, and then I met my lovely wife, and my interest in friends started fading. This is pretty normal. When young people enter their real careers, and start having babies, friends tend to begin losing the importance they once had. Friends in our twenties are the family we are trying to create in between our birth family and the family of our own we go on to create.

[Belinda]

Above Us Only Sky wrote:

I sometimes have to hide my personality.

Few or no people are interested in the whole of your personality. If you can find someone with whom you share at least one genuine interest at approximately the same level of ability you are doing okay.

[Sy Borg]

Common interests help. For me, playing an instrument has provided me with most of my friends; there is a real sense of understanding and camaraderie when instrumentalists are listening closely to each other, locking in, and filling the air with beautiful noise.

Like others here, I find spending time with animals and plants highly rewarding.

Also note that people are increasingly being separated by congestion; it simply becomes too much of a struggle through dense traffic or unreliable public transport to regularly visit people who live across town, and then parking is often an issue. So Belinda's suggestion to stay local makes sense in this context.

[Burning ghost]

Simply put loneliness is fear of self.

Any other way of looking at loneliness is just to distract from this plain and simply fact of being.

Being around people helps us to understand who we are. If you feel alone in a crowd there is some kind of fear that separates you from others.

Personally I find it difficult to understand people and spend lots of time alone. I would even say I am "scared" of people to a degree. Other days I can be the opposite of this and very chatty and relaxed. I have learnt that is just my nature. If I try and force myself to socialise as much as everyone else seems to I become unhappy and quite hateful towards people in general.

If you live in society you have to play by its rules. I am on the fringe. One day I'll no doubt leave for the jungle. The amazon is litetally the only place on Earth where I felt I belonged.

If I live in the jungle for 3 yrs alone does thay make to lonely?

[Logic_ill]

I have felt lonely when I feel no one on earth understands me or even cares. It has gotten even worse, when I have felt that others aim to actually hurt me, rather than "help". I guess, I fail to understand them as well. In time, I´ve realized that it´s a difficult thing to do (truly understand another), especially when it´s a face to face relationship. I´d rather just talk to myself (keep a journal, record myself, etc.) Even so, I think we have to try to learn of the others and communicate effectively. If we are to interact, we should think of better ways of doing so.

Loneliness is perhaps the sudden and unwanted realization that you are in fact alone with your own feelings, ways, thoughts, etc., You can try to share them and gain some insight or advice because our feelings are a common experience but there´s no guarantee you will be fully understood or that others really care. They have their own selves to carry and worry about. It may be terrifying for some people to realize this because it´s a kind of signaling out: an I, against them or you. It´s a sort of competition to assert your own identity in the midst of social expectations,especially if you do not care to compete. That´s when loneliness may set in the most; that´s when a person may want to be alone.

It´s better to be alone than have to deal with the others and end up feeling lonely. But loneliness is the process of realizing that you experience life in your unique way. Others may have gone through similar experiences and can help, but you have to go through the process on your own.

[Ormond]

Loneliness is perhaps the sudden and unwanted realization that you are in fact alone with your own feelings, ways, thoughts, etc.,

"You" is not only divided from other people, "you" is divided from itself, from the "feelings, ways and thoughts" it experiences. There is "me" and there is "my thoughts", which are experienced as two different things. Again, thought is inherently divisive, that is it's nature.

Suffering is an internal argument between "me" and "my thoughts". We seek out other people to distract us from these internal arguments we're having within ourselves.

Defining loneliness as being about other people is shallow philosophy. Surely forgivable in the young, but shallow nonetheless. Loneliness is about the division we experience inside of our own minds. Our interest in others is just a symptom of our own internal division.

This is why relationships can be so problematic. We're typically looking to the other person to fix a division problem inside our own minds that only we can do anything about. When the other person fails to do the impossible, we become disappointed or angry and often go in search of a "better" person.

[Logic_ill]

What I meant by the quote is that you cannot have someone else feel your feelings for you. You cannot have someone else have your thoughts or be under the exact circumstances that triggers them, etc. You alone feel your feelings and you have to feel them, if you are alive. Yes, other people may help distract you from destructive ones (even constructive ones), if any, but you still feel your own feelings.

I agree with your last sentence, but I don´t think loneliness being about other people is "shallow". I think other people can help a person feel less lonely or deepen that sense of isolation. I might not have believed it was possible for others to make you feel lonely, but it was.

[Ormond]

I agree with your last sentence, but I don´t think loneliness being about other people is "shallow".

Perhaps I chose the wrong word. Maybe "surface level" would be a better description. Or "confusing symptoms with causes".

Typically loneliness is thought of as being divided from other people. That's a surface level analysis, describing a symptom.

The underlying cause of loneliness is that we are divided within ourselves. "I" and "my thoughts" are experienced as two different things that get in to arguments with each other, ie. mental suffering.

It's this mental suffering which causes us to seek out people or other methods of escape, distraction etc. We want to be distracted by other people because if we're not, the mental suffering is more noticeable.

The internal division comes first, then the other people, and then often a conflict between "me" and the other people. The inner division is the source, and the outer conflict is a symptom.

Again, we are divided within ourselves because we literally are thought, and thought is an inherently divisive information medium. As example, our bodies are made mostly of water, and so our bodies are soft and squishy.