Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
- ThamiorTheThinker
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Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
I've been wondering for months now why many think that there is some ultimate metaphysical truth that must reside on one side of the "God" debate. It seems to me people are wasting their time debating whether or not the Judaeo-Christian God exists. i think the Christian doctrine has been thoroughly defeated, but theologians keep coming back to revise the definition of God in order to make it seem as though it is an existent being outside of spacetime. It's as though they believe it's impossible for there to be any other explanation than "God" where the universe and human lives are concerned. That's just one of literally infinite possibilities.
So, I must ask: Why the obsession with the debate over God's existence? Why isn't the public as a whole focused on exploring other possibilities? Why does the debate over the big questions we have about existence always end in "God"? Whats special about this single explanation of the universe and its meaning, purpose or origin?
- LuckyR
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
Quite simple really. The masses don't actually ponder these deep ideas. They self-identify as "religious" because of a couple of reasons: tradition is a big one, a feeling of superiority is a second big one, maybe the biggest one. A related but germain topic is that if one's totallity involved religion, which is common, then one doesn't consider non-religious options, so a majority of the possibilities aren't even on that person's radar screen.ThamiorTheThinker wrote:I'm not going to be presenting any formal arguments, so, the Philosopher's Lounge is the best place to post these thoughts.
I've been wondering for months now why many think that there is some ultimate metaphysical truth that must reside on one side of the "God" debate. It seems to me people are wasting their time debating whether or not the Judaeo-Christian God exists. i think the Christian doctrine has been thoroughly defeated, but theologians keep coming back to revise the definition of God in order to make it seem as though it is an existent being outside of spacetime. It's as though they believe it's impossible for there to be any other explanation than "God" where the universe and human lives are concerned. That's just one of literally infinite possibilities.
So, I must ask: Why the obsession with the debate over God's existence? Why isn't the public as a whole focused on exploring other possibilities? Why does the debate over the big questions we have about existence always end in "God"? Whats special about this single explanation of the universe and its meaning, purpose or origin?
- Ormond
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
Why are you "obsessing" over the Judeo-Christian God?
You're doing the same thing as everybody else, bringing the subject up and arguing a position of fantasy knowing and fantasy superiority for the billionth time.
You already have full intimate possession of a mind doing this thing you are asking about. Why not start your investigation there?
- Leon
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
- ThamiorTheThinker
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
Hmmm... Interesting points, but this conversation isn't about religion generally. I'm referring specifically to the concept of a monothesistic, personal God - God as the Judaeo-Christian religions imagine it.LuckyR wrote:Quite simple really. The masses don't actually ponder these deep ideas. They self-identify as "religious" because of a couple of reasons: tradition is a big one, a feeling of superiority is a second big one, maybe the biggest one. A related but germain topic is that if one's totallity involved religion, which is common, then one doesn't consider non-religious options, so a majority of the possibilities aren't even on that person's radar screen.ThamiorTheThinker wrote:I'm not going to be presenting any formal arguments, so, the Philosopher's Lounge is the best place to post these thoughts.
I've been wondering for months now why many think that there is some ultimate metaphysical truth that must reside on one side of the "God" debate. It seems to me people are wasting their time debating whether or not the Judaeo-Christian God exists. i think the Christian doctrine has been thoroughly defeated, but theologians keep coming back to revise the definition of God in order to make it seem as though it is an existent being outside of spacetime. It's as though they believe it's impossible for there to be any other explanation than "God" where the universe and human lives are concerned. That's just one of literally infinite possibilities.
So, I must ask: Why the obsession with the debate over God's existence? Why isn't the public as a whole focused on exploring other possibilities? Why does the debate over the big questions we have about existence always end in "God"? Whats special about this single explanation of the universe and its meaning, purpose or origin?
-- Updated May 20th, 2016, 1:05 am to add the following --
Fair enough, but redirecting the point and turning it against me isn't what I'm expecting.Ormond wrote:Well...
Why are you "obsessing" over the Judeo-Christian God?
You're doing the same thing as everybody else, bringing the subject up and arguing a position of fantasy knowing and fantasy superiority for the billionth time.
You already have full intimate possession of a mind doing this thing you are asking about. Why not start your investigation there?
- Ormond
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
I'm not turning it against you. You are asking for some information. That information may be available inside your own head, a much closer source than "those people out there somewhere". I'm offering you a possible shortcut.ThamiorTheThinker wrote:Fair enough, but redirecting the point and turning it against me isn't what I'm expecting.
It may help to clarify whether you really seek to understand, or whether this is just another "why are religious peeps so stooopid" thread. If the former, my suggestion can be useful. If the later, then well, on with the show.
- LuckyR
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
ThamiorTheThinker wrote:Hmmm... Interesting points, but this conversation isn't about religion generally. I'm referring specifically to the concept of a monothesistic, personal God - God as the Judaeo-Christian religions imagine it.LuckyR wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
Quite simple really. The masses don't actually ponder these deep ideas. They self-identify as "religious" because of a couple of reasons: tradition is a big one, a feeling of superiority is a second big one, maybe the biggest one. A related but germain topic is that if one's totallity involved religion, which is common, then one doesn't consider non-religious options, so a majority of the possibilities aren't even on that person's radar screen.
Of, I get what you are saying, but again the majority of the rabble in the West who believe in "god" (as code for "the Judeo-Christian" god), are not particularly theistic as they are religious.
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
- Misty
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
The rewards and punishments are also within present family and community life. The restrictions make it easier to control children and maintain family unity. It is easier to get men and women to be faithful in a marriage when not only do they have to face an angry spouse but family, church and God for breach of what that particular church tenets teach. I would rather a spouse be faithful to me because that is his desire, not because he is afraid God is gonna whack him if he isn't.Greta wrote:The Judeo-Christian deities engaged in 24/7 surveillance, with great rewards and punishments for one's actions in the afterlife. So followers were more obedient and, thus, coordinated than their opponents, allowing them a competitive military advantage which enabled them to spread their faith across much of the globe.
Military/political advantage was/is ever present among groups of people whether religious or not. I believe Jesus was opposed to the rich government/political advantage over the poor people of his day. Sadly, not much has changed since
his time.
The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.
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- Ormond
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
The Judeo-Christian God is a personification of nature.
Please recall that ancient peoples lived in an intimate relationship with nature in a manner few in our increasingly urbanized world today can comprehend. Our relationship with nature tends to be abstract and intellectual, as we can see in the nature of Net debates about God topics. If one only knew about religion from reading the web, one would understandably think religion is about nothing but intellectual assertions, a significant distortion of the reality.
The relationship the ancients had with reality was far more personal and emotional, because unlike most of us, they typically lived close to nature every day of their lives. Any of us can replicate that relationship today to at least some degree just by spending lots of time in nature. Which is of course something few of us will do, so few of us will understand.
The Judeo-Christian God is said to be all powerful and ever present. He is said to be both the gloriously beautiful giver of life and the ruthless killer of the innocent. The word "God" in such a description can be easily replaced with the word "nature" or "reality" without skipping a beat.
The practical question for human beings is, what is our relationship with this place where we find ourselves, whatever we call it?
As example, what is our relationship with a sunny day? Well, that's easy, celebrate! But what about a stormy day that ruins our plans? Again, the only rational answer is the same answer, celebrate! Otherwise, we are committing the highly irrational act of arguing with the weather, something far bigger than us and way beyond our control, much like the Judeo-Christian God.
As example, it's not rational to complain about the seeming unfairness of death, because it's going to happen anyway, like it not. So the rational thing to do is embrace it. By embracing death, we at least make that which we can control better for us.
The goal of religion is to make peace with reality. And not just in an intellectual way, because that is a shallow matter indeed. The real action is on the emotional level. It's far easier for most human beings (very few of whom are philosophers) to embrace, accept and celebrate reality if it is personalized, presented in a story we can relate to.
Of course, members will now slam down on the reply button to say, but that's an illusion, a fairy tale, just a fanciful story! Well dear members the real illusion, fairy tale and fanciful story is this notion you may have that you know what the truth of reality is, or is not.
So, if we are mature enough to accept that we actually don't know crap about issues at such a huge scale, then which is more rational...
1) A story about being trapped inside a huge mindless heartless machine of existential randomness which will shortly rip us to shreds for no reason whatsoever.
OR:
2) A story about a beautiful cranky grandfather character who sometimes has a bad temper, but loves us in the end, wishes the best for us, and will help us if we'll just shut up for a minute and listen.
Forgive this analogy, but please consider...
If you had a small child dying of cancer, what would you tell them on their death bed? Any story that would ease their pain, and help hold back the terror, right? That would be the compassionate rational action to take, wouldn't it?
The genius of religion, and the Judeo-Christian God story, is the sage understanding that in comparison to this place that we find ourselves inhabiting, all of us are small children about to die.
- Misty
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.
I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
- 3uGH7D4MLj
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
Hi Greta, actually, the Israelites were pretty ineffective warriors. The body count in the old testament is high, but I think it was mostly sabre rattling, legendary victories were written to get some respect in the neighborhood. They only ever had a scrap of real estate while empires thundered around them, taking them captive at will, finally pulverizing them in 70CE.Greta wrote:The Judeo-Christian deities engaged in 24/7 surveillance, with great rewards and punishments for one's actions in the afterlife. So followers were more obedient and, thus, coordinated than their opponents, allowing them a competitive military advantage which enabled them to spread their faith across much of the globe.
The genius of the Israelites was that they wrote the book. They had the chutzpah to trace their lineage back to the hand of God. And it caught on. Christianity is an extension of Judaism, a reform, and it caught on with the Roman Empire which had a pretty good military. That's why their faith was spread across the globe.
Why gods in the first place? I like Dennet's "assumption of agency" idea and EO Wilson's ultimate extended tribalism.
Why is the world still obsessed with the God idea? inertia and lazy traditionalism? Some real need for relief from the ambient anxiety?
Dunno.
-- Updated May 21st, 2016, 8:39 am to add the following --
Me too.Misty wrote:Ormond, I agree with your beautiful post. (#10)
- Misty
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
As long as humans abuse humans the under-DOG will need GOD.3uGH7D4MLj wrote:
Why gods in the first place? I like Dennet's "assumption of agency" idea and EO Wilson's ultimate extended tribalism.
Why is the world still obsessed with the God idea? inertia and lazy traditionalism? Some real need for relief from the ambient anxiety?
Dunno.
The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.
I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
- 3uGH7D4MLj
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
The Sistine God, we know the one. There is some evidence that monotheism was an Egyptian idea, and Israel was a vassal state of Egypt in the early days, so lots of travel and communications back and forth. Why was it so appealing? Why does it still have the hold that it does? Dunno.ThamiorTheThinker wrote:Hmmm... Interesting points, but this conversation isn't about religion generally. I'm referring specifically to the concept of a monothesistic, personal God - God as the Judaeo-Christian religions imagine it.
Just gossiping now, there is also evidence that Yahweh (eventually to become the Christian God the Father) was a Canaanite God of war, Yahweh of Armies!, who was worshiped before the Israelites took over the land of Canaan by force. The invaders picked that one from the Canaanite pantheon and declared that there would be no other God but Yahweh. And they wrote a book about it that changed the world.
- Ormond
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?
I dunno. Honestly, I usually think that, on average, atheist analysis of religion tends to be a shallow business, and not just forum users, but also the thought leaders they are following. I don't mean that theists are right and atheists are wrong, but that atheists typically don't really understand that which they are critiquing. And typically they don't care that they don't really understand. That's not reason or science or logic, valid inquiry methods, it's typically just an emotional reach for a fantasy superiority status, thus replicating some of the worst aspects of religion.3uGH7D4MLj wrote:Why gods in the first place? I like Dennet's "assumption of agency" idea and EO Wilson's ultimate extended tribalism.
As example, the vast majority of commentary on religion on philosophy and atheist forums is limited to the intellectual assertions of religion, as if that was all religion is. Such a limited focus reveals a lack of understanding of religion.
For the West and Christianity, where are the intelligent, thoughtful, brave, open, deeply inquiring posts on the experience of love and it's relationship with the fundamental human condition? They are rarely to be found in atheist circles, that's where.
Without inquiring in to the deeper aspects of religious experience, atheist commentators are left with no way to explain why religion is such a persistent social phenomena, even in a modern age when the "science clergy" is mounting such an impressive challenge.
Thus, I challenge atheists to turn the "inertia and lazy and faith based believers" lens back upon themselves, where it might actually do some good. Again, I DO NOT mean that atheists should convert to theism. I mean they should be much better atheists, or perhaps be quiet until they can. This is addressed to the internet atheist community in general, and not any particular posters here, just to be clear.Why is the world still obsessed with the God idea? inertia and lazy traditionalism?
Why is the world still "obsessed" with the God idea? Because it works, as thousands of years of experience would seem to demonstrate. As evolution theory teaches us, things that don't work tend to vanish pretty quickly.
Things that work will not be overturned by calling them stoopid. A true atheist concerned with religion's abuses will seek to understand why religion works, and how religion works, and then seek to meet the fundamental needs of human beings by methods which do not include the problems presented by religious excesses.
In short, does a reader think religion is dumb or bad etc? Ok, fair enough, so make that concern credible by inventing something that works better than religion, and prove it's superiority by your system being embraced on a deep emotional level by billions of people over thousands of years in every corner of the world.
Do you see? Even your heros the modern science clergy have not the slightest clue how to accomplish such a feat, and yet primitive ancient desert tribesmen did understand, and proved it. That's a pretty good argument for listening more closely to what they had to say, and how they said it.
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