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I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

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Ecurb
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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by Ecurb » January 4th, 2018, 10:58 am

Atreyu wrote:
January 3rd, 2018, 9:28 pm
Yeah, OK Ecurb, you're right. It's totally unreasonable for her husband to be suspicious of some guy he's never met, and of whom his wife has never disclosed their intimate past with, coming over to his house and taking pictures of his wife, some of which include bikinis and even lingerie.
I'm glad you agree. It IS unreasonable for Kathy's husband to "be suspicious of some guy he's never met." In fact, it's silly. Don has never vowed fidelity before "God and this Company". The notion that it's reasonable to "be suspicious of" Don, or blame him in any way, is a product of seeing one's wife as a form of property, and attempts at seduction as a form of robbery. In other words, it's sexist.

Kathy (not Don) has sworn fidelity to her husband. If she breaks her promises (understandable, considering what a dweeb her husband is), blaming Don for it is a vestige of a time when women were considered childlike, incapable of moral decision-making, and the property of their husbands. Karenin considered fighting a duel with Vronsky -- but the only person who had harmed Karenin was Anna.

Littlemoon asks, "Have you any insight of how human psychology works in these matters?" I suppose I have as much insight as the next person. The jealous husband doesn't want to blame his wife, because he loves her and doesn't want to create an insuperable rift between them. So he blames the man he thinks is her lover. But the lover (or mistress) has never attempted to harm the spouse. He probably hoped the spouse never found out about the affair. It's the wife who has broken promises, not her lover.

In any event, modern Westerners (except Mike Pence) think that men and women can and should be friends, conduct business, travel together on business, etc. etc. This is essential to equality in the workplace, and Kathy's husband should either grow up or join ISIS.

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LuckyR
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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by LuckyR » January 4th, 2018, 1:35 pm

There are clearly two views on this issue. Basically some put the relationship first and individual freedoms and rights second, others are asserting their legitimate individual freedoms primarily.

To me, if kathy and her husband were dating or possibly even engaged, her behavior would be completely defendable for all of the reasons she identifies. OTOH, in my world, once you are married, there is a third entity to be considered besides yourself and your mate, namely, the relationship itself. kathy has identified that there are problems with her behavior at baseline (hence why she would object if the tables were turned: the Substitution Test is failed), additionally if you believe that there is a thing of value (I call it: the Relationship), separate from your personal rights and freedoms, then you have your answer. If you don't, then you don't.
"As usual... it depends."

Ecurb
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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by Ecurb » January 4th, 2018, 6:53 pm

Why should a "Relationship" subject someone to suspicion, accusations, and an inability to make a living? If a business executive had a husband who didn't want her traveling with male colleagues, should she quit her job? When the husband is suspicious and controlling (and has anger issues, acc. to Kathy) isn't it important for his wife to retain some level of economic independence. If the husband's behavior worsens (as seems likely), she may need the money to make her getaway.

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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by LuckyR » January 4th, 2018, 7:36 pm

Ecurb wrote:
January 4th, 2018, 6:53 pm
Why should a "Relationship" subject someone to suspicion, accusations, and an inability to make a living? If a business executive had a husband who didn't want her traveling with male colleagues, should she quit her job? When the husband is suspicious and controlling (and has anger issues, acc. to Kathy) isn't it important for his wife to retain some level of economic independence. If the husband's behavior worsens (as seems likely), she may need the money to make her getaway.
Your question misses the point. The reason for the suspicion and accusations was the deceit (not the relationship). kathy acknowledges as much when she admits that if the tables were turned, that she would be just as suspicious and hurt.

Quibbling about how well or poorly her husband handles being lied to and made a fool of is rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic as it heads to the bottom. Better to miss the iceberg entirely by either recognizing that (in respect to the relationship) since her proposed behavior failed the Substitution Test, not to start the relationship with Dan. Or at minimum, approach her husband honestly before starting the relationship with Dan, get the husband's input and proceed honestly with the conclusion they reach together. No lying by omission required.
"As usual... it depends."

Ecurb
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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by Ecurb » January 4th, 2018, 9:07 pm

Of course I don't know for sure, but I tend to disagree. According to Kathy (who, of course, might well be inventing the whole imaginary scenario), her husband has anger issues. If she's afraid of her husband's anger, it's reasonable to deceive him. Honesty is the best policy only when both parties are reasonable (or at least harmless).

The behavior didn't "fail the substitution test". Kathy said she would be jealous. So what? A little minor jealousy never hurt anyone. Just because she'd be a little jealous if the situation were reversed doesn't mean she should give up her dream of being married to Tom Brady (I mean of being a model). Kathy doesn't say that she would expect her husband to abandon his pursuits because she was jealous, nor should she abandon hers.

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Atreyu
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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by Atreyu » January 5th, 2018, 12:40 pm

Ecurb, you're missing the whole point. No one is saying Kathy shouldn't try to get back into modelling. Her husband has not even asked her to do that.

Remember the title of the post. Kathy came here because her husband was "snooping" and "spying" on her, and she wanted advice on what to do about it. As if her husband was some kind of controlling jerk. Then we find out that in fact Kathy has not been truthful with her husband about who this guy is. She calls him a "friend" but really he is an ex boyfriend. So she has given her husband a false impression about what's going on, and she's admitted she did that intentionally because otherwise he probably wouldn't allow her to see him so much, let alone allow her to do what she's doing with him, and in his own home of all places.

So his snooping and suspicion is completely justified. She is being dishonest with him and keeping tabs on her is the only way for him to know what's really going on.

Not to mention I think Kathy is being dishonest with all of us on this forum. I think there's a lot more going on between her and Dan than she's admitting.
Kathyd wrote:I know that Dan and I are platonic friends because when we started hanging out together again, and especially after we started working together, it was flirting. I’ve toned down on the flirting and am acting more friendly and professional.
What!? What is platonic about flirting? In another post she said he did not "succumb to temptation". Really? Platonic friends do not flirt, nor are they "tempted". I think this whole thing is just a ruse for her and Dan to sort of 'test the waters' at having an affair, disguising the whole thing as some sort of "work" scenario.

Kathy is being dishonest, with us, with her husband, and even to herself. It makes no sense to have a "friend" 'help" you in this way when you are married.

Ecurb
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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by Ecurb » January 5th, 2018, 1:09 pm

Atreyu wrote:
January 5th, 2018, 12:40 pm
So she has given her husband a false impression about what's going on, and she's admitted she did that intentionally because otherwise he probably wouldn't allow her to see him so much, let alone allow her to do what she's doing with him, and in his own home of all places.

So his snooping and suspicion is completely justified. She is being dishonest with him and keeping tabs on her is the only way for him to know what's really going on.
I'm not missing the point. Since when does a husband have the right to (in your words) "(not) allow her to see him (Dan) so much." Since when does an adult allow another person to control her actions so blatantly. Kathy (acc.the report here -- I''m actually guessing the whole situation is fictional) knows her husband will try to control her actions, because she knows him. So she deceived him. Then he snooped and spied (including getting some neighbors to spy on her). The husband sounds dangerous.

Kathy's husband doesn't have a right to tell Kathy what to do. He doesn't have the right to tell her with whom she can associate. He doesn't even have a right to tell her with whom she can have sex. She's a free adult who can do what she wants -- her husband can also do what he wants, including leaving or divorcing her, but he cannot morally prohibit her from doing anything (other than to the extent that all citizens can prevent illegal behavior).

So not only is the husband's snooping and spying unjustified, but so is your notion that he is some sort of parent, from whom Kathy must get permission before she is "allowed" to spend time with a friend and colleague. That's ridiculous. My advice to Kathy (as previously stated): Get Out! And don;'t marry Atreyu, either.

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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by LuckyR » January 8th, 2018, 2:55 am

Ecurb wrote:
January 4th, 2018, 9:07 pm
Of course I don't know for sure, but I tend to disagree. According to Kathy (who, of course, might well be inventing the whole imaginary scenario), her husband has anger issues. If she's afraid of her husband's anger, it's reasonable to deceive him. Honesty is the best policy only when both parties are reasonable (or at least harmless).

The behavior didn't "fail the substitution test". Kathy said she would be jealous. So what? A little minor jealousy never hurt anyone. Just because she'd be a little jealous if the situation were reversed doesn't mean she should give up her dream of being married to Tom Brady (I mean of being a model). Kathy doesn't say that she would expect her husband to abandon his pursuits because she was jealous, nor should she abandon hers.
You are creating a false choice: either never become a model or hang out with the only person who can help you become a model, who happens to be your ex.

Life doesn't work that way.
"As usual... it depends."

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Burning ghost
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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by Burning ghost » January 8th, 2018, 3:46 am

Some women get off on making their partners jealous and so do some men. The stupidity is in not realizing your own unconscious pleasure in feeling "wanted."

There, you have your Agony Aunt summation. You can post in your blog now.
AKA badgerjelly

Ecurb
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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by Ecurb » January 8th, 2018, 11:51 am

LuckyR wrote:
January 8th, 2018, 2:55 am


You are creating a false choice: either never become a model or hang out with the only person who can help you become a model, who happens to be your ex.

Life doesn't work that way.
Why shouldn't Kathy hang out with one of her exes, if she wants to? Why does her husband have the right to tell her she shouldn't? She should ignore her snooping, spying, anger-prone husband whether or not Don is her best chance at a modeling career. Those actresses Harvey Weinstein abused could have gotten roles in movies produced by some0one else, but why should they have to? You are being almost (but not quite) as sexist as atreyu.
Burning Ghost
Some women get off on making their partners jealous and so do some men. The stupidity is in not realizing your own unconscious pleasure in feeling "wanted."
You're probably right, but that doesn't apply here. Kathy didn't even want her husband to know she was having photo sessions with Don. If he hadn't spied on her, he wouldn't be jealous, because he wouldn't know anything about it. So if Kathy does feel "unconscious pleasure" at her husband's jealousy, we cannot accuse her of trying to provoke it.

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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by Steve3007 » January 8th, 2018, 2:24 pm

Just out of curiosity: Are there any female Agony Aunts here advising Kathy about her moral dilemma? Or is it just geezers? If there's a mixture, I wonder if there are significant differences in the advice by gender.

Ecurb
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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by Ecurb » January 8th, 2018, 3:38 pm

I'm a man. I'm not sure about Atreyu, Burning Ghost, or Lucky, but I assume they're men. I'm also not sure about Kathy -- the story about being a beautiful, desirable model with a jealous husband and a fashion photographer ex-boyfriend seems like it might be a fantasy.

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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by Steve3007 » January 8th, 2018, 4:32 pm

Interesting theory. I guess in a place like this almost anything is possible.

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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by Kathyd » January 8th, 2018, 4:42 pm

I really appreciate everyone's honest input, but some of the comments here are simply not apropos. Tbh, some of them seem to be based on a false interpretation of my situation, or a complete ignorance of the modelling industry (Atreyu), while others seem to just be vindictive and judgemental.

I can assure you that I don't "get off" making my husband jealous, nor would I ever intentionally make him jealous anyways. I love my husband and would never do anything to hurt him. The truth is that I can't stand it when he gets jealous, and I'm seriously put off by his controlling behavior and his spying on me. I hate it. :( In fact, that's why I posted here in the first place.

Atreyu, Dan and I are not 'testing the waters'. Already been there. We experimented a bit in college at being more than friends, but both of us decided that we were not compatible in that area, so we reverted to being friends again. The reason I agreed to work with him is because I'd feel more comfortable working with a friend than a complete stranger (as would any model), and for you not to appreciate this tells me that you know nothing about how this industry works.

Just try to imagine modelling swimwear or lingerie as a woman and perhaps you'll see what I mean. You're standing there practically naked while a bunch of strangers, both men and women, make comments about your body like you're some kind of material object. Then, as you're posing, the photographer is making all sorts of explicit comments to help you 'work it', including directly commenting on specific body parts, both good and bad. It makes most models feel very uncomfortable, which is why most photographers are gay. In fact, all models I know would rather work with a friend or a gay guy, but the problem is that it's common for photographers to lie about their sexual orientation just to get work and make the model feel at ease, so you never know. I've had at least 2 photographers tell me they were gay, only to find out later that they had girlfriends.

Many models, including myself, even feel like sexual harassment is almost a rule when working with straight photographers (after all, "sexual harassment" is nothing more than unwanted behavior of a sexual nature which makes you feel uncomfortable). Just imagine standing in front of a guy you don't know in a thong bikini or lace panties while he makes suggestive comments about your body over and over. Any girl would feel harassed, and the only reason they get away with it is because to complain would get you blackballed for life. It's also common for them to get aroused during the shoot, something that has always made me feel extremely uncomfortable, but which you have to pretend not to notice in order to avoid an embarrassing situation. It's very common for them to get erections, and I've even seen some photographers so aroused that their breathing seemed erratic and their arms and hands were trembling so bad that they couldn't hold the camera steady. Many of them even ask for a 'break' or 'time out' to regain their composure. Plus, you always have to wonder if they are going to use the pictures for... um... 'personal' use. :oops: It's just a really bad situation all around for all the parties involved, so gay photographers are the norm. However, only a friend would take extra time to help with posing.

At any rate, that is why me and Dan are working together. We're not 'testing' anything. It's just that I feel more comfortable working with a friend rather than a strange man I don't know. I don't feel uncomfortable in front of him because I know he's not interested in me like that, plus he's already seen me naked (albeit long ago). And when he gets aroused I actually find it funny and I tease him about it, rather than feeling awkward and embarrassed about it, like I would with some creepy stranger.

Now, from hearing all my own experiences, not only does my husband know how uncomfortable it is for a model to work with a stranger, but he also feels uncomfortable with it as well, so we discussed it and we both agreed that it would be better (and cheaper) for a friend to help me get back in the business, rather than an established studio. I never told him about Dan or our history at the time because I didn't think it was relevant, plus I didn't want to open a can of worms. I don't even think of Dan as an "ex bf" anyways, I think of him as an old friend who I happened to have "fooled around" with a bit in college, not because there was anything there relationship-wise, but simply because when you're young that''s what often happens between friends. It meant nothing, and in fact was how Dan and I came to realize that we both preferred each other as friends rather than lovers.

Anyways, we had a firm understanding on this, and it wasn't until about a month ago that my husband started asking lots of pointed questions about Dan, seemingly out of the blue. I couldn't understand his change in behavior, but on thinking about it I realized that right before he started complaining he had access to my phone. I had left it at home one day, something I almost never do, and I think he hacked into it, which is how he found out who Dan was. I also remember that right before all this he had begun complaining about my having friends over the house all the time while he was at work, which made me suspect he was monitoring the house somehow (which I later verified, as our neighbor admitted to me that he asked him to keep tabs on who all was coming over and when).

Now, I agree that "honesty is the best policy", at least generally speaking, but like Lucky said, I also value my relationship with my husband, and I feel like telling him everything about me and Dan at this particular time would be a mistake. For some reason he's become suspicious of Dan and in light of this I think telling him everything now would be too much. I just don't see how it would bring him any peace of mind, and in fact I think it would be counterproductive and would only make him more suspicious. So in good faith I've decided to wait until a later time to tell him my entire history with Dan. I'm not trying to be dishonest or deceive him, I just think that in matters such as this timing is everything.

However, I have decided to confront him about his snooping, and to press him on why he's acting so jealous for no apparent reason. Because I see no reason for it and I feel that there must be something he's not telling me, otherwise it just doesn't make sense that everything was fine for about 6 months and then all of a sudden he wants to know everything about him (he even wants to know his SS# and other personal info so he can investigate his background!).

Ecurb, you seem to understand my position best, so let me ask you - how should I approach this? I know you agree with me that he has no right to snoop, but knowing my husband's temperament I don't want to come off in a confrontational way. As a man, what would you want to hear from a wife/gf in this situation, in order for you to feel comfortable with it? My current analysis is that for some reason my husband has begun thinking of Dan as some kind of "threat", even tho I know for certain he could have no good reason to think such a thing because it's completely without any foundation whatsoever.

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Atreyu
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Re: I need advice, please. My husband is jealous of my best guy friend and he’s been snooping and spying on me!

Post by Atreyu » January 8th, 2018, 8:43 pm

I may not know the modelling business, but I know that honesty is one of the most important aspects of a relationship, and you've been dishonest with your husband from the beginning. And even with yourself.

Here is the reality of your situation:

1. Dan is an ex-boyfriend, not a "friend".

2. Telling your husband a "friend" is your photographer was inherently dishonest.

3. Your justifications (not 'reasons') for being dishonest are a load of bull. You say you don't want to 'open up a can of worms' because you know your husband would have a problem with an ex doing this, and you have no intention of honoring his wishes, so you lied. And saying it was 'not relevant' is really something. Not relevant for whom? It's your husband's call, not yours, as far as what is 'relevant'. Who are you to decide what is 'relevant''?

4. You are going to continue to mislead him about your "friend" until it's in the distant past and you feel safe revealing it. How convenient, and dishonest.

5. You tell your husband Dan is in a "relationship", when you know he's just banging some 'fwb' (your words). Again, inherently dishonest, and merely a means to enable you to do what you want.

6. You say you "love" your husband but obviously don't give a damn about his feelings. You admit he's jealous and that you would be too if the roles were reversed, but all you seemed concerned about is getting what you want.

7. Dan would do you in a heartbeat if you consented, and indeed is a classic 'orbiter' hoping for his chance at the right opportunity. If you don't believe me, tell him you're thinking about leaving your husband and see how he responds.

8. You enjoy the attention you get from Dan. You may not want to be with him, but you love the attention. You're not just 'working' with Dan to get back into modelling, you also are thoroughly enjoying yourself and having fun with it.

9. Since you've been dishonest about your past with Dan, your husband is completely justified in trying to find out more of what's going on surreptitiously, i.e. 'snooping'. You lose your right to complain about 'snooping' when you do things behind your partner's back.

10. When you eventually tell your husband the whole truth about Dan, it's going to destroy what's left of his trust in you, probably permanently, and I wouldn't be surprised if he kicks your **** to the curb (which btw, would be totally appropriate given the circumstances and tbh is exactly how I'm hoping it all goes down).

What should you really do? Be honest with him now and yes, he will ask you to quit seeing Dan. Then, explain the situation to Dan and find a gay photographer to do your photo shoots. And that is exactly what you would do if you really loved your husband.

However, since it seems pretty obvious to me (based on your actions) that in fact you do not really love your husband, I'm betting that you're lying will continue for as long as you feel it's "necessary", "necessary" in this case meaning that you can do whatever you want regardless of your husband's feelings...

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