Following The Argument Where It Leads

Chat about anything your heart desires here, just be civil. Factual or scientific questions about philosophy go here (e.g. "When was Socrates born?"), and so most homework help questions belong here. Note, posts in the off-topic section will not increase new members post counts. This includes the introductions and feedback sections.
Fooloso4
Posts: 3601
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Fooloso4 »

Georgeanna:
I don't fully understand what you mean by 'what we see is...the assumptions and concerns that inform the argument'. And how this would differ from a logical process…
I was referring to what we see when we look at two different ways in which following where the argument leads is understood based on different assumptions and concerns. In line with your previous post about philosophy as a way of life, following where the argument leads is informed by an understanding of thinking as an activity whose value need not have some end beyond the activity itself. This stands in contrast to the assumption that philosophy is primarily useful for achieving some end, for solving some problem, for arriving at some truth based on reason. The first way of looking at philosophy is an opening up, the second is a narrowing down. The second way, as the article you quoted indicates, does not lead to the intended end and so the injunction is rejected.
Georgeanna
Posts: 436
Joined: October 29th, 2017, 1:17 pm

Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Georgeanna »

Thank you, fooloso4, for clarification. I now understand better. However, I can't help but think that 'following where the argument leads', in the sense of thinking aloud, as an activity of value in itself and an opening up, would better be phrased as 'following where the discussion leads'.
There is no initial 'argument' as such, is there ? Or am I being a bit stupid here...probably. However, I take encouragement from Peter Suber.

Peter Suber's lecture notes and his philosophy regarding group enquiry. Part of it here:

https://legacy.earlham.edu/~peters/cour ... ticipation
Note for the shy: quality of oral contributions cannot be judged from a sample of zero. Note for the loquacious: quality of oral contributions is not a function of quantity, not even a little bit. Good class discussions require more than fluency in English. They require a reasonably civilized conquest of timidity, drawing the line between bashful under-confidence and what DeQuincy called "imbecile garrulity".

They require good listening and good will. You should reflect before speaking, build on previous comments, help discover the meaning that others are struggling to express, be open to persuasion, and bend to the weight of evidence and reasoning. You must be prepared to substantiate your factual or textual claims, to defend your value judgments, to show the connection between your premises and conclusions, and to use the diversity of insights and perspectives in the class to advance your understanding of our texts and their themes.

The ultimate premise of class discussion is that each of us can learn from each of us; otherwise we would read the books at home and never meet...

...Discussion is group inquiry, not merely group talk. We will try to understand our texts and reach answers on the important questions they raise. Group inquiry only works when the insights of many people are made public, giving each a view much wider than they could have had by themselves.

It requires that these perspectives be received with respect, but subjected to respectful scrutiny and criticism. For these reasons I want you to feel free, unafraid, and positively encouraged to speak your mind even when you suspect that others may disagree. You may feel uneasy, but I'll be pulling for you. Say anything that you believe is true and will help the group understand the issues or passages under discussion, especially if you can support your claim with reasons or evidence.

Respect anything said by another for which reasons are given; and when no reasons are given, ask for them. When you disagree with others, don't rest in your opposition to their statements or conclusions; find their reasons and address them directly.

If you accept the principle that discussion is group inquiry, then your uncertainty about a question is a good reason to speak, not a good reason to remain silent. If you don't have answers, but feel uncertain, then you can help the cause by asking questions to zero in on what is difficult.

Identify what sub-questions we must answer before we can answer the main question on the floor. If you agree with others, support them instead of remaining silent. If the atmosphere of the course ever prevents you from speaking up, proposing new ideas, asking questions, or disagreeing with anybody (student, teacher, author), whether the cause lies in me or your fellow students, please let me know. Beyond what I can do, however, students should take responsibility for the quality of their discussions.

If you accept the principle that your uncertainty is a good reason to speak, not a good reason to remain silent, then you will understand my expectation (in seminars and discussion courses) that everyone should speak every day.

To take responsibility for the quality of discussions means, at least, to come prepared every day to listen and speak, learn and teach, and to participate without being called on. While discussion is group inquiry, we are not just struggling for the "right answers", but also to explore and develop the process of this joint inquiry for answers. As Quakers say of the consensus process, aim for a "balance between being persuasive and being persuasible". If you want respect, insights, seriousness, and a healthy balance of speaking and listening from others, you must give the same to them.
Some wise pointers there, I think.
In this case, of course, group discussion does follow on from texts which will contain arguments. So, I suppose - I can see where I am wrong.
So, the injunction 'Follow where the argument leads' stands as is. Exploring and developing within a healthy atmosphere.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14997
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Sy Borg »

Karpel Tunnel wrote: October 28th, 2018, 8:40 amAnd I suppose we could take it as a wish and not as something that might guide moderator behavior.
I never used it, myself. I think modding is just a matter of commonsense.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: October 28th, 2018, 8:40 amI think it would be better, given all this, to just leave the only-insult posts in place. It makes reactions to them clear and if nothing else it is a record of what should be embarassing behavior, even if the people in question never get embarrassed.

They tend to be veyr short posts, so they don't take up much space. And it would save you time.
Sometimes I leave them, but if there is a complaint, I delete or edit unless I see the complaint as an overreaction. I treat all of these things on a case by case basis rather than bother with policies since I hold a largely unaccountable role of Forum Dictator, in keeping with the Zeitgeist :)
Fooloso4
Posts: 3601
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Fooloso4 »

Georgeanna:
… would better be phrased as 'following where the discussion leads'.
The Greek term translated as argument is ‘logos’. Discussion would be an appropriate translation in this context, but the term ‘discussion’ is often used in a non-critical casual sense - a discussion of the weather or what’s for dinner. The term 'class discussion' is standard practice. It sounds less confrontational, more cooperative than a class argument which may connote a fight, shouting, and bickering. But when describing to students what a philosophical argument is, one might describe it in much the way Suber describes class discussion.
There is no initial 'argument' as such, is there ?
There is:
"Now this is exactly what I meant: we must come to an agreement as to whether we'll let the poets make their narratives for us by imitation; or whether they are to imitate some things and not others, and what sort belongs to each group; or whether they are not to imitate at all."
"I divine," he said, "that you're considering whether we'll admit tragedy and comedy into the city or not.
"Perhaps," I said, "and perhaps something still more than this. You see, I myself really don't know yet, but wherever the argument,
like a wind, tends, thither must we go."
Poetry is a transliteration of the Greek poiesis, from poiein, to make. The poets are both the makers of images (imitation) and opinion-makers. In the image of the cave in the Republic, they are the puppet makers. The shadows on the wall of the cave are the shadows of their puppets.

Where the argument leads is questions of education, truth and opinion, and philosophy.

Book VII opens:
… make an image of our nature in its education and want of education, likening it to a condition of the following
kind. See human beings as though they were in an underground cave-like dwelling (514a)
But Book VI begins:
"And so, Glaucon," I said, "through a somewhat lengthy argument, who the philosophers are and who the nonphilosophers has, with
considerable effort, somehow been brought to light." (484a)
Has it come to light? Here we see another sense of what it means to follow the argument. If we are in a cave, which will not be introduced until the next book, then it is by the light of the cave that the distinction between the philosophers and nonphilosophers is made. The philosopher has come to light at the end of book V as the lover of knowledge and wisdom and the nonphilosopher the lover of opinion (480 a). But if the distinction between knowledge and opinion has not been shown then the distinction between the lover of knowledge and the lover of opinion cannot be made. The image of the cave turns out to be just another image and Plato another poet.

By carefully following the argument the poet’s place in the just city takes on a whole new meaning than it would if we did not follow where it went. What it means to follow the argument where it leads now shows itself to mean not only following where it goes but where it has been.
Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 948
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Greta wrote: October 28th, 2018, 4:34 pm I never used it, myself. I think modding is just a matter of commonsense.
At least, one common sense amongst a number of commonsenses.
Sometimes I leave them, but if there is a complaint, I delete or edit unless I see the complaint as an overreaction. I treat all of these things on a case by case basis rather than bother with policies since I hold a largely unaccountable role of Forum Dictator, in keeping with the Zeitgeist :)
I'll be careful where my digital ass is in relation to you then.
Georgeanna
Posts: 436
Joined: October 29th, 2017, 1:17 pm

Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Georgeanna »

Fooloso4 wrote: October 28th, 2018, 6:39 pm Georgeanna:
… would better be phrased as 'following where the discussion leads'.
The Greek term translated as argument is ‘logos’. Discussion would be an appropriate translation in this context, but the term ‘discussion’ is often used in a non-critical casual sense - a discussion of the weather or what’s for dinner. The term 'class discussion' is standard practice. It sounds less confrontational, more cooperative than a class argument which may connote a fight, shouting, and bickering. But when describing to students what a philosophical argument is, one might describe it in much the way Suber describes class discussion.
There is no initial 'argument' as such, is there ?
There is:
"Now this is exactly what I meant: we must come to an agreement as to whether we'll let the poets make their narratives for us by imitation; or whether they are to imitate some things and not others, and what sort belongs to each group; or whether they are not to imitate at all."
"I divine," he said, "that you're considering whether we'll admit tragedy and comedy into the city or not.
"Perhaps," I said, "and perhaps something still more than this. You see, I myself really don't know yet, but wherever the argument,
like a wind, tends, thither must we go."
Poetry is a transliteration of the Greek poiesis, from poiein, to make. The poets are both the makers of images (imitation) and opinion-makers. In the image of the cave in the Republic, they are the puppet makers. The shadows on the wall of the cave are the shadows of their puppets.

Where the argument leads is questions of education, truth and opinion, and philosophy.

Book VII opens:
… make an image of our nature in its education and want of education, likening it to a condition of the following
kind. See human beings as though they were in an underground cave-like dwelling (514a)
But Book VI begins:
"And so, Glaucon," I said, "through a somewhat lengthy argument, who the philosophers are and who the nonphilosophers has, with
considerable effort, somehow been brought to light." (484a)
Has it come to light? Here we see another sense of what it means to follow the argument. If we are in a cave, which will not be introduced until the next book, then it is by the light of the cave that the distinction between the philosophers and nonphilosophers is made. The philosopher has come to light at the end of book V as the lover of knowledge and wisdom and the nonphilosopher the lover of opinion (480 a). But if the distinction between knowledge and opinion has not been shown then the distinction between the lover of knowledge and the lover of opinion cannot be made. The image of the cave turns out to be just another image and Plato another poet.

By carefully following the argument the poet’s place in the just city takes on a whole new meaning than it would if we did not follow where it went. What it means to follow the argument where it leads now shows itself to mean not only following where it goes but where it has been.
Thank you once more, fooloso4, for being a patient and enlightening teacher who never makes any questioner feel stupid and who never shows any hint of condescension. You answer the questions, staying on track and not going off on one big blah, blah, blah full of self-importance.

When I said that there was no initial 'argument' as such, I was thinking more of myself or anyone else who starts an exploration simply by musing or following a wish to know more.
For example, I wondered what was meant by 'fascism'. In my case, the initial stirrings came from a place of emotion - a fear of the rising hatred and violence as apparent in recent political events, namely Brexit and Trump.

What followed led to a place where the acts of forum moderation were considered; also the different perspectives on philosophical discussions.
Your OP cleverly brought focus and a branching out.

The different ways we can even look at a single injunction - what it means to follow the argument where it leads - demands a quality of care.
In gathering thoughts, words and action.
Georgeanna
Posts: 436
Joined: October 29th, 2017, 1:17 pm

Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Georgeanna »

I forgot to add - the explanation and questions relating to Plato (what may have been brought to light by the arguments ) remain of interest to me. The above quotes served to spark some life into the backburner where I placed him...
But there's simply too much to take in :)
I don't know that I have the quality of care required...
User avatar
chewybrian
Posts: 1594
Joined: May 9th, 2018, 7:17 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Epictetus
Location: Florida man

Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by chewybrian »

Fooloso4 wrote: October 26th, 2018, 10:29 pm Greta:
Many naturalists would disagree with the statement "at first he is nothing".
I have not read enough Sartre to give a confident answer. I think that what he is getting as is that our identity is not something we are given. We cannot determine at birth what someone will make of themself by a sophisticated physical examination. In addition, there is no god given plan or purpose that plays itself out for any of us or all of us.
Man is nothing else but what he makes of himself. Such is the first principle of existentialism.
When he is born he has not yet made anything of himself hence he is nothing, that is, not this or that. What he becomes, both in the sense of the individual and as a species, is determined by what he does, by his actions.
There is no reality except in action… Man is nothing else than his plan; he exists only to the extent that he fulfills himself; he is therefore nothing else than the ensemble of his acts, nothing else than his life.
I only brought this up as a little joke, but it is a very interesting topic, and I think I will re-read the text and start another thread to see if anyone else wants to discuss it. I am surprised how much I have forgotten, but it has been a long time since I read this.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
Fooloso4
Posts: 3601
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Fooloso4 »

Georgeanna:
But there's simply too much to take in
I know the feeling, but it is a mistake to take in nothing because you will never be able to take in everything.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophers' Lounge”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021