Following The Argument Where It Leads

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Fooloso4
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Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Fooloso4 »

There is a famous Socratic injunction to “follow the argument where it leads”. This, in my opinion, is a key feature of philosophical argument. Attempts to restrict the flow of the argument can lead to the death of the argument. We should not preclude the possibilities it opens to other areas of inquiry simply because we cannot see ahead of time where it is going or how it might return or how it may broaden the scope of the initial question.

It strikes me as analogous to foot binding to control its growth. The result may be someone’s idea of a beautiful foot but it is crippling.

This is not to say that going off topic is never a problem, but that preemptive attempts to prevent that from happening may result in bigger problems. It may be that a tangent is self-limiting that is either not pursued beyond a few posts or will circle back or expand the initial inquiry in a useful way. Or, one thing leading to another, something new may arise that would not have otherwise. In my opinion, it is best to allow a bit of messiness. If we knew ahead of time where an inquiry will lead the inquiry itself would not be necessary, and strict control of where it goes will surely prevent it from going to places that may be fruitful and interesting.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Burning ghost »

Of course. Common sense.

What I don’t take Socrates words to mean are anything akin to asking questions about the habits of field mice and then ending up talking about the density of moon rock - if the subject has be left so far behind and ignored then what is the point of posing any particular question at all.

The pendulum swings both ways.

This being a philosophy forum means that people don’t generally come here for in depth discussions about last nights football, whether or not apples taste better with custard than rhubarb, or tips about how to blow glass.

None of this is to say that whimsy cannot lead to a meaningful discussion - even one that proved much more “worthy” original topic. Remember that what you deem worthy may not be what someone else deems worthy - hence the need for compromise, a certain standard of technical discourse within the bounds of relation, and leeway for the odd frvilous remark and playful banter. More often than not the pleasure of an argument desolves due to either lack of humour, lack of sincerity and/or lack of resolve.
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Fooloso4
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Fooloso4 »

BG:
What I don’t take Socrates words to mean are anything akin to asking questions about the habits of field mice and then ending up talking about the density of moon rock - if the subject has be left so far behind and ignored then what is the point of posing any particular question at all.
One of my first impressions of reading Plato was to wonder why he was talking about horses and saddles and sea captains, and so on, since they obviously had nothing to do with the topic at hand. I was wrong.
Remember that what you deem worthy may not be what someone else deems worthy - hence the need for compromise …
And how does this translate into action? You may not deem worthy what others do, which leads to two questions: 1) What is the need for compromise? 2) What stands as a worthy compromise? Unilateral interference in a topic by shunting posts elsewhere is not, in my opinion, a compromise.
More often than not the pleasure of an argument desolves due to either lack of humour, lack of sincerity and/or lack of resolve.
I can only speak for myself. As a member, if an argument takes a bad turn I can ignore that part of it or the topic as a whole if necessary. As a moderator, I attempt to keep things from getting out of hand when the forum rules are violated, but this can become a petty game where members are complaining about the smallest slights, whether perceived or real. We are all adults, not delicate objects prone to irreparable damage if someone says something we take offense to. Rough and tumble has always been a part of philosophical discussion. For the most part since I have been here, which has been almost 2 years to the day longer than you, this forum has remained civil and problems have been dealt with expediently and without serious disruption. I cannot say the same of other philosophy forums I have visited. Sometimes the fix is worse than the problem.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Sy Borg »

These days I usually like to let things resolve themselves, including mods feeling their way into the job, either slowly or with excess zeal. This is partly laziness on my part.

The main thing for me is balance. I want visitors and members to find this forum enjoyable and interesting in contrast with the usual dull online biffo. Still, there are personalities who feel strongly about misinformation and don't suffer (what they see as) fools gladly. They can be helpful, working as gatekeepers against the kind of extreme self indulgence that can happen on philosophy forums.

Still, experience tells me that the most effective response to crappy posts is to ignore rather than to correct, let them be buried under legitimate discussions, their post rendered a mere a child's cry for attention amongst oblivious chatting adults.

All one need do is not take the bait. Easier said than done, of course, especially when the child has a loud voice :)
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Burning ghost
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Burning ghost »

Fool -

Plato's talk of horses, captains, caves and such are uses of analogy. I wasn't referring to analogy. I mistakenly assumed that was obvious enough.

"Shunting" posts elsewhere is justified in my eyes whilst simply deleting posts is not.

If I now continually try and start up a discussion about field mice in a thread (not even slightly analogous) I wouldn't expect it to be taken seriously. If I was told not to do this because it was needlessly cluttering the thread and continued I wouldn't find it unfair that the topic was split into a new thread. If there was literally no content for discussion then splitting and locking are entirely justified in my eyes.

I don't see how I've acted without any comprimise? Do you wish to see al my PM's? You see part of the story and assume - as you must - whatever it is you assume.

I don't assume being an "adult" is necessarily a label of any significant substance.
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Georgeanna
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Georgeanna »

Fooloso4 wrote: October 22nd, 2018, 4:01 pm There is a famous Socratic injunction to “follow the argument where it leads”. This, in my opinion, is a key feature of philosophical argument. Attempts to restrict the flow of the argument can lead to the death of the argument. We should not preclude the possibilities it opens to other areas of inquiry simply because we cannot see ahead of time where it is going or how it might return or how it may broaden the scope of the initial question.

It strikes me as analogous to foot binding to control its growth. The result may be someone’s idea of a beautiful foot but it is crippling.

This is not to say that going off topic is never a problem, but that preemptive attempts to prevent that from happening may result in bigger problems. It may be that a tangent is self-limiting that is either not pursued beyond a few posts or will circle back or expand the initial inquiry in a useful way. Or, one thing leading to another, something new may arise that would not have otherwise. In my opinion, it is best to allow a bit of messiness. If we knew ahead of time where an inquiry will lead the inquiry itself would not be necessary, and strict control of where it goes will surely prevent it from going to places that may be fruitful and interesting.
I think it depends on what the person hopes to gain from starting a thread. For me, it is usually about exploration rather than argumentation.
So, I will happily go where some posters take me. But then I tend to digress and forget the core thought. It is an exercise in keeping the balance of keeping on topic, exploring the theme or issue - within certain limits. It is not easy. It is good to have someone, not necessarily a moderator, who can keep you on track, sometimes.

In another forum, it was about self-moderation - you were responsible for the thread you started. If there were any difficulties then you could report to a moderator. This too was not always satisfactory.

When a moderator has a high sense of responsibility for the progress, or otherwise, of a thread, this can be problematic. Especially, if there is an attempt to restrict discussion to a narrow interpretation of the thread title.
But I've said this already.

When I first started here, I looked at the rules of engagement - the requirements to start a thread. The rules are still there.
However, fortunately for me, they seem to have been slackened. I began to feel free to explore and then some...
It's a wonderful safe environment ...thanks for all the hard work in making it look easy.
Steve3007
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Steve3007 »

Fooloso4 wrote:We should not preclude the possibilities it opens to other areas of inquiry simply because we cannot see ahead of time where it is going or how it might return or how it may broaden the scope of the initial question.
In my experience and observation, one of the main impediments to simply following the argument wherever it leads, one step at a time, is the fact that most of us (myself included) often tend to have a conclusion in mind that we are seeking to demonstrate. i.e. we all suffer from confirmation bias and all tend to have pre-existing beliefs and views. We're not blank slates. So, this being the case, we often tend to try, as in a chess game, to look a few moves ahead and try to work out whether we're going down a path which we don't want to follow; whether we're being "led into a trap". In an ideal philosophical world we wouldn't do that. But we're only human. We recognise that such things as the lack of precision in language can lead us to conclusions we didn't intend and that, once that has happened, it's difficult to say "Ah! I didn't mean that! Let's back up the argument and try again!". We know that such a proposition would ring hollow. So we try to preempt.
Fooloso4
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Fooloso4 »

Steve3007:
In my experience and observation, one of the main impediments to simply following the argument wherever it leads, one step at a time, is the fact that most of us (myself included) often tend to have a conclusion in mind that we are seeking to demonstrate.
I think that this is generally true but I think of following the argument where it goes differently. I’ll quote from Plato:
"Perhaps," I said, "and perhaps something still more than this. You see, I myself really don't know yet, but wherever the argument,
like a wind, tends, thither must we go." (Republic 394d)
There is something chaotic or disordered in this image of the wind blowing things around. It is not a stepwise pattern. It lead us here and there and who knows where. When I started studying philosophy I often experienced something like this, chasing down one avenue and another, down paths that diverged and paths that converged.

I think of following the argument where it leads as a matter of opening up vistas and exploring crooked old lanes. I’d like to think that there are some who come here not to make arguments but to discover something new. They may be in search of information, but they may find new ways of looking at and seeing things.

Wittgenstein said:
When you are philosophizing you have to descend into the primeval chaos and feel at home there. (CV 65)
And earlier:
The thought working its way to the light (CV 47)
Some prefer the semblance of order, with everything in its proper place. No coloring outside the lines. If that is how their mind works then so be it. But for others thinking is dialogic. Some, as the old saying goes, think with their pen. Thought does not emerge preformed, neat and tidy.

Nietzsche’s Zarathustra said:
I say unto you: one must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. I say unto you: you still have chaos in yourselves. (Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Toward the Ubermensch)
Georgeanna
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Georgeanna »

Fooloso4, thanks for the quotes from Plato, Wittgenstein and Nietzsche.

I didn't realise until I started writing in a philosophy forum that my thinking or style was so conversational. I enjoy the to and fro and being challenged, even if my head hurts at times.
I can be more analytical when need be e.g. during a course, writing essays.
'From chaos comes clarity' was my hopeful motto.

I do appreciate reading others with more experience who write so well, clarifying issues as they go.
Where else do you get to see a mind close up, at work...and play ?
Georgeanna
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Georgeanna »

Greta wrote: October 22nd, 2018, 7:11 pm These days I usually like to let things resolve themselves, including mods feeling their way into the job, either slowly or with excess zeal. This is partly laziness on my part.

The main thing for me is balance. I want visitors and members to find this forum enjoyable and interesting in contrast with the usual dull online biffo. Still, there are personalities who feel strongly about misinformation and don't suffer (what they see as) fools gladly. They can be helpful, working as gatekeepers against the kind of extreme self indulgence that can happen on philosophy forums.

Still, experience tells me that the most effective response to crappy posts is to ignore rather than to correct, let them be buried under legitimate discussions, their post rendered a mere a child's cry for attention amongst oblivious chatting adults.

All one need do is not take the bait. Easier said than done, of course, especially when the child has a loud voice :)
What on earth is 'biffo'' when it's at home ?

Thanks for the response to what might be seen as a tense situation - it's wise to let someone find their feet as a newcomer to the job.
I was wondering if there is a training or trial period involved.

It's one thing to be able to ignore 'crappy posts'; quite another to ignore some questionable actions and temperament of a moderator.
Fooloso4 was asked by BG if he wanted to see his PM's. I don't expect he does. Or will even reply, so ridiculous it is.
However, I can't help wondering how many people BG has contacted in addition to myself and I believe Hobbes. It seems to have been his modus operandi for controlling posts or responding to objections.

I know I am going on a bit and have already been accused of trolling but really - nobody needs to feel that a Hovering Headmaster is looking over their shoulder before they even begin to talk.
I do believe that BG has a real concern and a care for this forum, and I do hope that things settle down...
That's all.
Que Sera Sera.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Sy Borg »

Georgeanna wrote: October 23rd, 2018, 2:33 pm
Greta wrote: October 22nd, 2018, 7:11 pm These days I usually like to let things resolve themselves, including mods feeling their way into the job, either slowly or with excess zeal. This is partly laziness on my part.

The main thing for me is balance. I want visitors and members to find this forum enjoyable and interesting in contrast with the usual dull online biffo. Still, there are personalities who feel strongly about misinformation and don't suffer (what they see as) fools gladly. They can be helpful, working as gatekeepers against the kind of extreme self indulgence that can happen on philosophy forums.

Still, experience tells me that the most effective response to crappy posts is to ignore rather than to correct, let them be buried under legitimate discussions, their post rendered a mere a child's cry for attention amongst oblivious chatting adults.

All one need do is not take the bait. Easier said than done, of course, especially when the child has a loud voice :)
What on earth is 'biffo'' when it's at home ?

Thanks for the response to what might be seen as a tense situation - it's wise to let someone find their feet as a newcomer to the job.
I was wondering if there is a training or trial period involved.

It's one thing to be able to ignore 'crappy posts'; quite another to ignore some questionable actions and temperament of a moderator.
Fooloso4 was asked by BG if he wanted to see his PM's. I don't expect he does. Or will even reply, so ridiculous it is.
However, I can't help wondering how many people BG has contacted in addition to myself and I believe Hobbes. It seems to have been his modus operandi for controlling posts or responding to objections.

I know I am going on a bit and have already been accused of trolling but really - nobody needs to feel that a Hovering Headmaster is looking over their shoulder before they even begin to talk.
I do believe that BG has a real concern and a care for this forum, and I do hope that things settle down...
That's all.
Que Sera Sera.
"Biffo" is Aussie slang for fighting.

I have been a hoovering headmistress myself in the past so I can't judge BG, or anyone else. I left my hoovering behind because said hoovering kept creating the very foment I hoped to avert, to keep topics on the interesting stuff rather than the internally focused. That is, the hoovering, rather than the hoovered, kept becoming the issue.

Also, I prefer to just operate like everyone else and let members talk smack to me all they like because that's much more fun than coerced "respect".

My main focus is seeing interesting threads with deep, non clichéd discussion that won't have serious visitors rolling their eyes (too much). Nobody gives a damn about us as individuals (and we no doubt return the compliment), mostly just the big questions.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Burning ghost »

I only care about trying to keep conversations flowing, and branching. I am certainly taking on a “hoovering” role and also trying to slowly revivify popular threads that have pages and pages of posts that seem to flit between several subjects (which is great) yet sometimes these subjects may be better served ni their own threads.

I completely understand that if so then people can, and do, create spin-off threads (if they do then I am in a position to post links to these topics OP’s.) My putting forward these suggests is for two main reasons (1) to give new memebers a better opportunity to jump into a topic rather than wonder why the hell people are talking ablut this or that tangental to the OP and them not being able/willing to read 100’s of pages) and (2) because I have the time and inclination to do this where people who visit occassionally may not, or simply dno’t feel inclined to bother opening up new topics even though they’d be more than willing to participate in them - personal experience aside I have got this impression from others too.

Greta -

I am not opposed to “talking smack.” As far as I am concerned spmeone can be racist, homophobic, anti-religion, sexist and insulting in various other ways AS LONG AS THEY HAVE SOMETHING OF CONTENT IN THEIR POSTS. This is probably the sketchy ground because you may ask what I deem to be of meaningful content? If you look at the posts I’ve removed and labelled Off Topic you can judge me by that.

As an example someone could takl about my behavior as being “fascist” in the thread we all knwo and love. I’d be happy enough with that. I would certainly respond to it though and ask if my behavior is “fascist” simply because I wish to remove content from a thread that is not even slightly related to what is going on (although I see no reason for removing some related joke or jibe - a sense of humour doesn’t hurt!)

Fool has deleted posts. I don’t have access to posts that were deleted and I judge Fool’s judgement by way of Greta’s judgement to give Fool a mod position. If it was just a stream of vicious insults then I guess I’d have deleted them too rather than merely “remove” them. If there were some vicious insults among some meaningful content that was on topic I’d leave it be - unless it was an OP in which case I’d ask the poster to make an OP without reverting to insults.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Burning ghost »

Also, this is a personal exercise for me. I am not the most orderly person and so takig on this role helps me organise my thoughts (which is another reason I post on forums at all) and actively read threads I woudl otherwise be inclined to pass over for something that is in my immediate circle of interest.

Hopefully over all the forum will benefit a little from this, albeit in the most “slightest” way, whilst I’ll real the personal rewards too.

The one area I am suspicious of (regarding myself) is how I’ll handle posts that ignore rational discourse. I do cetainly get annoyed, like anyone does, when a discussion is interupted by people with little to no understanding of how to set out a reasonable argument or hypothesis - in that case I have made many mistakes by either being too harsh or too soft. No doubt I’ll make the same mistakes again, but I hope I’ve learnt enough to make less of them.

As fro memebers here like RJG I have a long running acquaintance with them (we’re talking several years) and I do come dow reasonably hard on people like that if they have not managed to make any progress explicating their position because I see them as wasting people’s time (for the large part.)

That said RJG, last few times he popped his head out, had seemingly made steps toward giving more to nack up his position rather than just repeating his argument over and over again.

I imgaine we’ve all been in a position where we find ourselves repeating ourselves simply because we assume the other person accepts certain principles we take for granted. If we attend to this then we’re faced with the opposite proble of being overly pedantic in our speech! Either way it’s a losing game if you expect to win ;)
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Burning ghost
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Burning ghost »

Fool -

Oh! And something I find interesting is how to apply science to philosophical proposals. I’ve always had a hard time distinguishing - or finding the need to distinguish - between science and philosophy.
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Georgeanna
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Georgeanna »

Greta, I don't know if you misread, mistyped or are creatively shifting my meaning. I said 'Hovering' not 'hoovering'.
Hovering = hanging over or around someone - staying close, waiting, ready to interfere.
hovering = cleaning or removing with a vacuum cleaner.

The ability to judge comes from experience, observation and other skill sets. Even past keen cleaners can do that. Everyday we apply judgement not necessarily in the sense of being judgemental, which humans can still be nevertheless.

Anyone can have good, fair or poor judgement of a character or situation. A lot depends on context. Time, place or person.
Here, we all judge each other, rightly or wrongly, on what and how we write; it's what we do.
All this without knowing anything or not much of anyone's background or their current personal situation.
In philosophy we can apply the Principle of Charity.

So, yes - it's good to be able to stand back and observe thought processes and proceedings.
I think that the desire for interesting, creative, 'deep and non-clichéd discussion' is within most of us. Who needs same old, same old, right.
But that's what happens sometimes in dealing with the 'big questions'.
If we want to be boldly go where no Hoover has gone before, then sometimes we need space, inner and outer. We don't need to feel restricted by a sense of, if not a real, heavy, hovering hand. Tread lightly. With knowledge and inspiration, cometh more light...hopefully.

I know that life isn't always the uplifting 'Houston, we are a go !' - sometimes it is the challenging 'Houston, we have a problem.'

Houston: This is Houston. Say again please.
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