Following The Argument Where It Leads

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Burning ghost
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Burning ghost »

Georgeanna -

To really understand the meaning of “poetry” in ancient Greek terms I would highly recommend looking at Aristotle’s “Poetics.” Was an eye-opener for me because the only way understood “poetry” previous to looking at his work was in the common modern sense. For the ancient Greeks the term encompassed something more equivalent to “theatre” than what we today refer to as “poetry.”

I believe Fool has alluded to this elsewhere with talk of Plato’s dialogues being “plays.”

Note: It is not a particularly long work. Here’s a link to one trans.: https://www.stmarys-ca.edu/sites/defaul ... oetics.pdf
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chewybrian
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by chewybrian »

Greta wrote: October 24th, 2018, 7:19 am
Burning ghost wrote: October 24th, 2018, 4:35 amGreta -

I am not opposed to “talking smack.” As far as I am concerned spmeone can be racist, homophobic, anti-religion, sexist and insulting in various other ways AS LONG AS THEY HAVE SOMETHING OF CONTENT IN THEIR POSTS.
That comment was not directed at you. It was more a general statement because it could be said that I hold an inordinate power imbalance that makes my participation unfair. Thus, the only ethical approach I have is to allow others to get stuck into me if they wish, within reason of course, and I guess I was providing gratuitous reassurance to that end.
OK, I will take my turn and test the limits:

Greta, you are a big doo doo head, and existence precedes essence.

This place has taken an unfortunate turn. It seems philosophical discussion needs very light censorship, if any, to be meaningful. Yet, serious participants should understand the uncertainty which surrounds the subject matter, and discuss it accordingly. We should enter the discussion knowing that it is likely that others will come to different conclusions, and be ready to accept it and respect their right to do so.

It still surprises me that people have opinions set in stone about subjects so slippery. And, many seem to lack the curiosity which seems natural to studying philosophy. Instead of struggling to understand the other person's perspective, it seems some of us are circling and waiting for a perceived gap in logic or scientific 'certainty' which could be attacked. Of course, you see such behavior all the time on the internet, but you would hope that a site dedicated to philosophy would rise above it for the most part.

I don't know that there is anything the mods could or should do to restore a kinder atmosphere. But, there are a couple blowhards who should consider how they are affecting the tone and stifling discussion for the rest of us by trying to intimidate or troll people. We could all use a dose of humility and could show a bit more kindness and patience, but those few in particular are setting a bad tone. I know I would respect their ideas more if they were presented in a softer tone. They could benefit themselves and the rest of us if they reset their style. Here's hoping...
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Burning ghost wrote:
Greta -

I am not opposed to “talking smack.” As far as I am concerned spmeone can be racist, homophobic, anti-religion, sexist and insulting in various other ways AS LONG AS THEY HAVE SOMETHING OF CONTENT IN THEIR POSTS.
Is there a limit to how many posts someone can post in some period of time where there is little or nothing of substance but insults are present? Or does TH have a kind of free hand to burp and fart forever alongside other posts of his where he makes an effort? I mean, aren't just sort of left like hte mother of a teenager, erasing posts and never changing the pattern?

And by the time you get there with your sweep set we're already airing our clothes and holding our noses.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Burning ghost »

Karp -

I stand by what I’ve said. If someone really bothers you I’d suggest using the “foe” option. Other than that do as you want (ie. stop speaking to them or sling **** back them ... I really don’t care that much as long as there is SOMETHING subatantial worth reading.)

I’m not here to police people only keep threads “tidy,” and hopefully help people steer thread along and link old threads to new ones (refresh and revivify threads so newcomers to the forum aren’t too overwhelmed.)
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Sy Borg
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Sy Borg »

Burning ghost wrote: October 25th, 2018, 3:02 pmI really don’t care that much as long as there is SOMETHING substantial worth reading.)
Exactly. It's informal chat.

Karpel, I haven't thought to tally Hobbes's responses. When he lets go of his emotions long enough to let his brain function he is very good.
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Sy Borg »

chewybrian wrote: October 25th, 2018, 7:04 am
Greta wrote: October 24th, 2018, 7:19 am
That comment was not directed at you. It was more a general statement because it could be said that I hold an inordinate power imbalance that makes my participation unfair. Thus, the only ethical approach I have is to allow others to get stuck into me if they wish, within reason of course, and I guess I was providing gratuitous reassurance to that end.
OK, I will take my turn and test the limits:

Greta, you are a big doo doo head, and existence precedes essence.
The former is obviously true. No argument. The latter is simply a really trippy idea but sadly, much of the time when trippy ideas are investigated, there's a dull and prosaic explanation. It's like when we found out that surfaces of the Moon, Venus and Mars were lifeless deserts when, back in the day, we had all sorts of exciting ideas of what might be out there - exotic animals, maybe even civilisations! Then we learn that the Earth has the most boring possible neighbours. Can you imagine a pair of more pointless, misbegotten planets?

The idea that humans might actually be the most interesting things in reality is also ghastly in its dullness. All of this - the galactic clusters and supermassive black holes and incredibly powerful suns and wide variety of planets - is here to produce ... us? It's like building an entire factory so as to make a single broken doll. It's like sticking a red nose on the universe. No wonder so many scientists and others are dreaming of ET.
chewybrian wrote:I don't know that there is anything the mods could or should do to restore a kinder atmosphere. But, there are a couple blowhards who should consider how they are affecting the tone and stifling discussion for the rest of us by trying to intimidate or troll people. We could all use a dose of humility and could show a bit more kindness and patience, but those few in particular are setting a bad tone. I know I would respect their ideas more if they were presented in a softer tone. They could benefit themselves and the rest of us if they reset their style. Here's hoping...
Believe it or not, this place is much gentler than it used to be. I generally don't mind people being idiotic and aggro because I know what it is to be idiotic and aggro on a forum, having been so many times. I didn't mean badly, but was blind to my overly antagonistic and insufficiently cerebral aspects. The aggression also comes from insecurity - which appears to be a mix of personal hangups and fear of a future that those with opposing ideas might bring about.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Burning ghost »

Existence might precede esssece ... it depends what is meanr by those terms. I generally assume the person uttering the words sees them as making enough sense to share even if they look problematic to me - or maybe that my appraisal of the terms has been faulty within the given context.

Greta -

Some people do actually thrive if antagonised. It depends on personality. If some guy hadn’t ranted on about Kant continuously in nearly every discussion I had with him then I’d very likley have never read Critique of Pure Reason.

Humour is another problem on the internet. I’ve been accused of insulting people on other forums a few times due to misunderstandings (sometimes my fault and sometimes the chocie of the readers.) Generally though vitriolic talk doesn’t do much good in the long run for the one spouting it - they tend to be ignored or have poked fun at them.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Sy Borg »

Burning ghost wrote: October 25th, 2018, 10:55 pmSome people do actually thrive if antagonised. It depends on personality.
Yes. As you say, sometimes the frission of battle pushes one to try harder.
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Greta wrote: October 25th, 2018, 5:58 pm
Burning ghost wrote: October 25th, 2018, 3:02 pmI really don’t care that much as long as there is SOMETHING substantial worth reading.)
Exactly. It's informal chat.

Karpel, I haven't thought to tally Hobbes's responses. When he lets go of his emotions long enough to let his brain function he is very good.
I agree. He's clearly smart and can be concise with his arguments, a trait I admire and wish I was better at. I just wondered if the mods must run around sweeping up after him, that is taking away the contentless insult posts, forever, or do they ever decide to up the ante a little.
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Burning ghost wrote: October 25th, 2018, 3:02 pm Karp -

I stand by what I’ve said. If someone really bothers you I’d suggest using the “foe” option. Other than that do as you want (ie. stop speaking to them or sling **** back them ... I really don’t care that much as long as there is SOMETHING subatantial worth reading.)

I’m not here to police people only keep threads “tidy,” and hopefully help people steer thread along and link old threads to new ones (refresh and revivify threads so newcomers to the forum aren’t too overwhelmed.)
Sure. I have him on foe, and if you are content to sweep up after his contentless insult posts, that's obviously your choice (or choices if other mods do this also). I think it does bring down the mood of the forum, which may have side effects that are hard to track and not positive. Your tidying will often be after the fact of the insulted having read his response.

I don't see any real advantage to removing the insults, since they are often read by their targets before being deleted anyway. The distinction between tidying threads and policing people seems fuzzy at the least.

I say leave the posts. They are short posts. They may help give the context to responses from others whose posts also include content.
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Burning ghost wrote: October 25th, 2018, 10:55 pm Some people do actually thrive if antagonised. It depends on personality.
It is easy enough to get antagonized by people who do not quite respond to points made, who do not concede things, who use strawmen (intentionally or not) and so on. There is so much to potentially get antogonized by already.

Futher positive consequences can come from even horrible experiences and acts. But then there are likely downsides to those acts and experiences.
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

You might also want to take down anything like this....
Speak Nicely and Politely - If the conversation turns into a contest, or if any of the speakers feel angry or offended, it will greatly reduce the philosophical productivity of the discussion. A discussion about philosophy can quickly degenerate into a name-calling, insult-throwing fight. The other person will listen to you more if they feel more comfortable and respected. Do not just speak as nicely as you must in order to keep the conversation philosophical; instead, speak as nicely, respectfully, and politely as you can. Avoid insults, name-calling, or offensiveness as much as possible. Also, especially if you disagree, try thanking the other person for discussing the topic with you.
Or challenge Scott's position.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Burning ghost »

Karp -
They are short posts. They may help give the context to responses from others whose posts also include content.
That doesn’t make sense to me. If there is context then they stay. Have you actually looked at the posts I’ve removed?

I am sure Greta would agree removing “Good morning. I woke up an hour ago” was justified, it being a comment redundant to the topic of “fascism.” It was obviously made in context to TH’s off topic comment about his post being deleted (which I confirmed it wasn’t and any other mod here can confirm too because deletions are logged.)

What is happening here is interesting at least - I’d even say extremely fascinating!

I think it would be better if I just went about my business fror now out and make absolutely ZERO comment about this again for at least a month. I’ve been clear enough about this all in several different posts and I’m now growing tired of repeating myself.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by Sy Borg »

It's the middle ground, KT, somewhere between that happy ideal and the feral lunacy passing as conversation online.

As I say, I found that being strict in this area tends to inflame tensions. Sometime the lowest conflict option is to let small spats be and only act when there's something major going on that's impacting the forum generally.

Usually, if there's a complaint I will edit a rule breaking post, but often with misgivings.
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Re: Following The Argument Where It Leads

Post by chewybrian »

Burning ghost wrote: October 25th, 2018, 10:55 pm Existence might precede esssece ... it depends what is meanr by those terms. I generally assume the person uttering the words sees them as making enough sense to share even if they look problematic to me - or maybe that my appraisal of the terms has been faulty within the given context.
I take it to mean that we are formed into a certain type of person by nature and nurture before we are able to decide much for ourselves. Then, we begin to be able to judge circumstances on our own, and determine that we may or may not want to continue being that type of person. We can make choices that gradually turn us into the type of person we want to be, if we are lucky enough to be able to figure it out, and strong enough to pursue it. You may have to be brutally honest with yourself.

I'm not sure what is problematic about this idea unless you don't believe in free will. Maybe we don't share definitions. I'd say:

Existence=being a person largely formed by events, as a child must be, and feeling life just happens to you.

Essence= an ideal you pursue after examining the person you were and choosing to change. (Some people might just 'fall into it', too, though they may have subconsciously made a decision to change). When someone can say "I am a teacher", and describe their place in the world, their passion and highest and best use, as well as the way they get a paycheck, then perhaps they have found their essence.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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