Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

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Jklint
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by Jklint »

Terrapin Station wrote: May 29th, 2020, 9:51 am I don't think there are good or bad people, especially not inherently good or bad people.
Really? Does it make a difference if its "inherent" or not if you can't tell the difference whether or not it is? Are we going to camouflage the evil by covering it with the ameliorating balm of psychology as if to affirm "it's not you, it's the evil inside you? That makes as much sense as the following which may sound open-minded and commonsensical but is actually a total invervsion of it...

There is so much good in the worst of us
and so much bad in the best of us
that it ill behooves any of us
to find fault with the rest of us.

No! I don't think so.
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

There is a slogan in Christianity that says we should "hate the sin, but love the sinner". Christianity teaches that there are no inherently good or inherently bad people. It is not the person that is judged, but rather the behavior. Every person is redeemable.

Sociopathy should be viewed as one of many genetic handicaps that humans are subject to. People can be helped to understand and adjust to their handicap so that it does not bring disorder to their lives or the lives of others. Not all handicaps are physical.
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by Sy Borg »

When all is said an done we have relative amounts of order and chaos. Each hopes for an optimal balance of these in their lives. On macro levels, though, the situation is different. For Buddhists, it's the realm of Shiva the Destroyer and Renewer. Without destruction, we have stagnation.

Would Germany and Japan be the industrial powerhouses they are today if not for the destruction of WWII, forcing them to rebuild with modern infrastructure?

What would happened to Europe without the great plague, which fixed their overpopulation problems and lead to a grand era of creativity and prosperity?

What would Earth have been if not for the Permian Extinction event, which wiped out about 90% of all species while filling the world with oxygen that allowed for animals and plants to evolve?

Meanwhile, it is likely that collisions in our early solar system made life on Earth possible.

Each person is both an agent of entropy and an agent of order in varying degrees. Balance is always the aim. So "bad people" are those who tend more towards entropy than order. However, they will always have orderly aspects to their minds and behaviours too.

Simply, very destructive people at times will promote order - either intentionally or by accident - but that will be more the exception than the rule.
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LuckyR
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by LuckyR »

Greta wrote: August 23rd, 2020, 6:56 pm When all is said an done we have relative amounts of order and chaos. Each hopes for an optimal balance of these in their lives. On macro levels, though, the situation is different. For Buddhists, it's the realm of Shiva the Destroyer and Renewer. Without destruction, we have stagnation.

Would Germany and Japan be the industrial powerhouses they are today if not for the destruction of WWII, forcing them to rebuild with modern infrastructure?

What would happened to Europe without the great plague, which fixed their overpopulation problems and lead to a grand era of creativity and prosperity?

What would Earth have been if not for the Permian Extinction event, which wiped out about 90% of all species while filling the world with oxygen that allowed for animals and plants to evolve?

Meanwhile, it is likely that collisions in our early solar system made life on Earth possible.

Each person is both an agent of entropy and an agent of order in varying degrees. Balance is always the aim. So "bad people" are those who tend more towards entropy than order. However, they will always have orderly aspects to their minds and behaviours too.

Simply, very destructive people at times will promote order - either intentionally or by accident - but that will be more the exception than the rule.
When you put it like that, I feel a lot better about driving fast and taking a lot of plane trips.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sy Borg
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by Sy Borg »

LuckyR wrote: August 24th, 2020, 1:44 am
Greta wrote: August 23rd, 2020, 6:56 pm When all is said an done we have relative amounts of order and chaos. Each hopes for an optimal balance of these in their lives. On macro levels, though, the situation is different. For Buddhists, it's the realm of Shiva the Destroyer and Renewer. Without destruction, we have stagnation.

Would Germany and Japan be the industrial powerhouses they are today if not for the destruction of WWII, forcing them to rebuild with modern infrastructure?

What would happened to Europe without the great plague, which fixed their overpopulation problems and lead to a grand era of creativity and prosperity?

What would Earth have been if not for the Permian Extinction event, which wiped out about 90% of all species while filling the world with oxygen that allowed for animals and plants to evolve?

Meanwhile, it is likely that collisions in our early solar system made life on Earth possible.

Each person is both an agent of entropy and an agent of order in varying degrees. Balance is always the aim. So "bad people" are those who tend more towards entropy than order. However, they will always have orderly aspects to their minds and behaviours too.

Simply, very destructive people at times will promote order - either intentionally or by accident - but that will be more the exception than the rule.
When you put it like that, I feel a lot better about driving fast and taking a lot of plane trips.
That's okay. Probabilities suggest that some people are going to be destructive psychopaths, so why not you? ;)
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LuckyR
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by LuckyR »

Greta wrote: August 24th, 2020, 6:50 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 24th, 2020, 1:44 am

When you put it like that, I feel a lot better about driving fast and taking a lot of plane trips.
That's okay. Probabilities suggest that some people are going to be destructive psychopaths, so why not you? ;)
You have a looser definition of destructive psychopath than I do.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sy Borg
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by Sy Borg »

LuckyR wrote: August 28th, 2020, 1:29 am
Greta wrote: August 24th, 2020, 6:50 pm
That's okay. Probabilities suggest that some people are going to be destructive psychopaths, so why not you? ;)
You have a looser definition of destructive psychopath than I do.
When one's tongue is in one's cheek, things tend to loosen up.
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Greta wrote: May 25th, 2020, 5:40 am If he feels guilt, I'm not sure that he is a sociopath.

Ultimately, our deeds matter more to the world than our internal workings (which only matter to us and bonded others).
Yes. The only confusion here is cleared, I think, when we remember that a person can do a good deed today, and a bad one tomorrow. Humans aren't consistently good or bad, generally speaking. I don't accept the concept of a person who is inherently and wholly bad (or good). We are all a bit of both.

The Taoist symbol reflects this: ☯
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Greta wrote: May 25th, 2020, 5:40 am If he feels guilt, I'm not sure that he is a sociopath.

Ultimately, our deeds matter more to the world than our internal workings (which only matter to us and bonded others).
I think that is right. Except that the internal workings do not really matter to bonded others. People may imagine that they do, but they don't. What matters is what the bonded others do, which includes what they say. Just because you are bonded to others, that does not make you able to read people's minds.

Now, it may be that someone would not do something if they did not feel a certain way, but what matters to others is what they do.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Ecurb wrote: August 18th, 2020, 4:42 pm From the perspective of a Christian God, who transcends time and space, "acts" are irrelevant to a person's goodness or evil. I tend to agree. ...

The Bible is not consistently in your favor on that (the following are King James Version); these verses say it is what people do that matters:


Ecclesiastes 12:

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


Matthew 25:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


John 5:

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


2 Corinthians 5:

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


James 2:

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


1 Peter 1:

17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


Revelation 2:

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.


Revelation 20:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Revelation 22:

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



There is a reason why there has been disagreement among Christians about whether it is faith or works that matter most. So your description of what Christianity is about is not something that all Christians would agree to. Some of them pay attention to the verses quoted above.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: August 21st, 2020, 6:53 pm There is a slogan in Christianity that says we should "hate the sin, but love the sinner". ...
Yes, Christians have used the bait and switch tactic. Their love of the sinner involves torturing them in the Inquisition, burning the witches and heretics, etc.

Of course, this follows naturally from a belief that some people deserve to burn in hell forever. If one can torture someone a bit in this life to get them to avoid eternal damnation, one is doing the person a favor by torturing them. And if it fails to convert them, they deserve torture or God would not torture them forever in hell. That is the essence of Christian love.
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by Ecurb »

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 4th, 2020, 2:43 pm


The Bible is not consistently in your favor on that (the following are King James Version); these verses say it is what people do that matters:




There is a reason why there has been disagreement among Christians about whether it is faith or works that matter most. So your description of what Christianity is about is not something that all Christians would agree to. Some of them pay attention to the verses quoted above.
Good point. I was oversimplifying. Also, I wasn't referring to the "faith vs. works" debate, but to the notion that God can see into the hearts of men, and judge them by what is there. Isn't there some quote decrying "lust in one's heart"? Hence the notion that the jailed pedophile who WOULD commit crimes if he were free is just as evil as the ACTUAL criminal.

You quoted the negative lines in Matthew 25; the positive ones ("you gave me to drink") seem to imply that righteous non-Christians can be saved. Still, "by their works you shall know them" refers to us puny humans. We have no way other than works of judging other people. God (presumably) sees into our hearts (Just to clarify, I'm not a Christian, or religious at all.)

Suppose there are two people: one is a successful, charismatic politician (we'll call him Adolf); the other an unpopular nerd who lives in his parents basement. Both hate Jews, and would murder 6 million of them, if they could. Who is more evil?

Of course Adolf, because of his charisma, competence and drive, IS able to murder 6 million Jews, and the nerd isn't. But (it seems to me) from the perspective of an all-knowing God, the nerd might be just as evil as Adolf. Do charisma, drive and competence make Adolf MORE evil? Aren't they positive qualities? Is it reasonable to think that the more competent an evil person is, the more evil he is (he certainly would cause more harm)? Of course this assumes "evil" exists. Nietzsche said, "I have destroyed the distinction between good and evil, but not that between good and bad."
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 4th, 2020, 2:47 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote: August 21st, 2020, 6:53 pm There is a slogan in Christianity that says we should "hate the sin, but love the sinner". ...
Yes, Christians have used the bait and switch tactic. Their love of the sinner involves torturing them in the Inquisition, burning the witches and heretics, etc.

Of course, this follows naturally from a belief that some people deserve to burn in hell forever. If one can torture someone a bit in this life to get them to avoid eternal damnation, one is doing the person a favor by torturing them. And if it fails to convert them, they deserve torture or God would not torture them forever in hell. That is the essence of Christian love.
That's a good example of the difference between deontology and consequentialism. Deontologist argue from a pre-existing moral code, while consequentialists argue from objective evidence of what is good for us and what is bad for us.
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Ecurb wrote: October 4th, 2020, 4:58 pm
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 4th, 2020, 2:43 pm


The Bible is not consistently in your favor on that (the following are King James Version); these verses say it is what people do that matters:




There is a reason why there has been disagreement among Christians about whether it is faith or works that matter most. So your description of what Christianity is about is not something that all Christians would agree to. Some of them pay attention to the verses quoted above.
Good point. I was oversimplifying. Also, I wasn't referring to the "faith vs. works" debate, but to the notion that God can see into the hearts of men, and judge them by what is there. Isn't there some quote decrying "lust in one's heart"? Hence the notion that the jailed pedophile who WOULD commit crimes if he were free is just as evil as the ACTUAL criminal.

You quoted the negative lines in Matthew 25; the positive ones ("you gave me to drink") seem to imply that righteous non-Christians can be saved. Still, "by their works you shall know them" refers to us puny humans. We have no way other than works of judging other people. God (presumably) sees into our hearts (Just to clarify, I'm not a Christian, or religious at all.)

Suppose there are two people: one is a successful, charismatic politician (we'll call him Adolf); the other an unpopular nerd who lives in his parents basement. Both hate Jews, and would murder 6 million of them, if they could. Who is more evil?

Of course Adolf, because of his charisma, competence and drive, IS able to murder 6 million Jews, and the nerd isn't. But (it seems to me) from the perspective of an all-knowing God, the nerd might be just as evil as Adolf. Do charisma, drive and competence make Adolf MORE evil? Aren't they positive qualities? Is it reasonable to think that the more competent an evil person is, the more evil he is (he certainly would cause more harm)? Of course this assumes "evil" exists. Nietzsche said, "I have destroyed the distinction between good and evil, but not that between good and bad."
One of the two things that Kant got right was the notion that all virtues (e.g., "charisma, drive and competence") could be used equally for evil as well as for good, except for one, "a good will". And the "good will" would be our judgment of the person's heart.
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Re: Can an inherently bad person be a good person by doing good deeds

Post by Sy Borg »

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 4th, 2020, 2:20 pm
Greta wrote: May 25th, 2020, 5:40 am If he feels guilt, I'm not sure that he is a sociopath.

Ultimately, our deeds matter more to the world than our internal workings (which only matter to us and bonded others).
I think that is right. Except that the internal workings do not really matter to bonded others. People may imagine that they do, but they don't. What matters is what the bonded others do, which includes what they say. Just because you are bonded to others, that does not make you able to read people's minds.

Now, it may be that someone would not do something if they did not feel a certain way, but what matters to others is what they do.
Hehehe, it depends on the individual. There are people out there who are overbearingly focused on the internal workings of their victims, er, partners. Civil rights campaigners, advertisers and dictators, too - the latter seeing their intrusions as risk management, preventing thoughts from growing into deeds. For that reason I expect the west to increasingly prohibit speech online that is seen as disruptive, probably becoming ever more like the Chinese, who no doubt came upon their systems of control because of civil unrest caused by rumours and exposés in the past.

The rest of us, though, tend to be too busy trying to hold our own lives together to much notice others' troubles, let alone care about them.
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