Uyghur

Chat about anything your heart desires here, just be civil. Factual or scientific questions about philosophy go here (e.g. "When was Socrates born?"), and so most homework help questions belong here. Note, posts in the off-topic section will not increase new members post counts. This includes the introductions and feedback sections.
Ecurb
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: Uyghur

Post by Ecurb »

Sculptor1 wrote: October 19th, 2020, 9:46 am
Many countries have ways to keep the population down. The US does it through poverty and overcrowding.
The brilliant strategy of keeping the population down by overcrowding is working well for us. And, heck, if more people are born, there will be more overcrowding, which will keep the population down even more! I'm surprised more countries haven't thought of this.
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Uyghur

Post by Arjen »

Ecurb wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 8:14 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: October 19th, 2020, 9:46 am
Many countries have ways to keep the population down. The US does it through poverty and overcrowding.
The brilliant strategy of keeping the population down by overcrowding is working well for us. And, heck, if more people are born, there will be more overcrowding, which will keep the population down even more! I'm surprised more countries haven't thought of this.
:lol:
Count Lucanor wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 6:35 pm https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... es/593239/
https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-se ... ntion-camp
As you might expect, the US will say that they are not concentration camps, but other type of facilities. But again, that's also what China will say about their detention facilities.
BTW, so does Israel, among many others of the "free world":
You use 2 sources that are very bias. But, I did try to verify the facts, however, no sources were mentioned. Therefore, I must conclude that this is propaganda. Attempts to whitewash the Uyghur genocide by an emotional response to articles obviously written to illicit an emotional response.
These sources are even worse. Again, no sources for 'facts' in the articles.

What disturbs me more is that you seem to think that prison facilities are the same as concentration camps and that, for some reason, innocent countries should give people without a permit to enter the country a royal welcome. Can you somehow explain those 2 incredible lapses in judgment on your part? Or should I emotionally go along with that?
count wrote: The shipment, again, is said to be suspicious of forced labor. The hair itself doesn't seem to be a problem, and I read other news of similar seizing of synthetic hair products from China.
This is not about synthetic hair. Slave labour is 1 thing, but you know as well as I do that the Uyghur camps are not just about slave labour. Should I emotionally go along with whitewashing genocide?
I quoted an article from New Zealand's media, which did not pretend to portrait any positive image of China's hair industry. Why should we believe that they are part of a propaganda effort?
For the same reason that CNN is going along with it. By checking the facts. Every time when we see incorrect facts, the CCP benefits.

Anyway, that that article is not reporting on more going on there doesn't mean that more is not going on there. For example, saying that Trump is corrupt, does not exclude Biden from corruption, yet somehow, this appears to be what all those propaganda articles in the news try to make us emotionally go along with. It is the Hegelian dialective. And we know that Biden made that deal with the military wing of the CCP. The wing that handles propaganda and censorship.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Uyghur

Post by Count Lucanor »

Arjen wrote: October 24th, 2020, 9:20 am
Count Lucanor wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 6:35 pm https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... es/593239/
https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-se ... ntion-camp
As you might expect, the US will say that they are not concentration camps, but other type of facilities. But again, that's also what China will say about their detention facilities.
BTW, so does Israel, among many others of the "free world":
You use 2 sources that are very bias. But, I did try to verify the facts, however, no sources were mentioned. Therefore, I must conclude that this is propaganda.
Unless one pointed to a technical or scientific report, all the information coming from media sources must be assumed to have some bias. That applies to all your "sources", too. Media outlets don't hide their editorial agendas and public in general is aware of this, but to be politically motivated does not necessarily imply having to lie, manipulate and spread propaganda. There's a threshold that separates credible information from propaganda, which we can see here in this thread. You are here yourself in an obvious propaganda campaign, drawing caricatures of evil vs good, which is not how the world actually is.

In any case, the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) is engaged in the defense of civil liberties since the 1920's, including support for oppressed minorities, which is the topic you are asking us to be concerned in this thread. Why would you dismiss them all of the sudden as not relevant and bias? The systematic abuses and human rights violations by the US in its detention facilities are well documented from independent sources and even the US senate itself. Here's just one of so many well-known reports:

Prosecuting Abuses of Detainees in U.S. Counter- terrorism Operations

After September 11, 2001, U.S. counterterrorism policies authorized and fostered systematic violations of human rights standards under national and international law. Those most responsible were not held accountable. Contrary to fundamental democratic values, these policies and actions damaged the standing of the United States in the world and irreparably injured individuals. Abuses against prisoners were committed in detention facilities in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Guantánamo Bay, and in secret prisons run by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). These violations humiliated and degraded detainees, stripped them of their core bearings in the world, and, in a number of instances, resulted in death.

And since your opening post references The Guardian, I should assume that's a credible reference source for you, so here we go again:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-disgrace
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ns-reports
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... er-georgia
Arjen wrote: October 24th, 2020, 9:20 am Attempts to whitewash the Uyghur genocide by an emotional response to articles obviously written to illicit an emotional response.
As we can see, your whole opening post is an attempt to elicit an emotional response against China by portraying the political control of the Uyghur minorities far more worst than the evidence seems to show. I mean, comparing it to the Nazi death camps and suggesting in purely rhetorical and dramatic fashion that we might be on the verge of a third world war, is a ludicrous claim.
Arjen wrote: October 24th, 2020, 9:20 am What disturbs me more is that you seem to think that prison facilities are the same as concentration camps and that, for some reason, innocent countries should give people without a permit to enter the country a royal welcome. Can you somehow explain those 2 incredible lapses in judgment on your part? Or should I emotionally go along with that?
I find it more disturbing that you, quite candidly, are very eager to buy the pubic relations narrative from the governments you like to endorse. It is "prison and educational facilities" for the US and Chinese governments, and it is concentration camps for others. The Chinese say that their detention facilities for the Uyghurs are for counteracting Muslim terrorism, and something similar will say the US about their own camps. China has its "war on terror" and so does the US. No government calls its own facilities concentration camps. Such policies should be addressed with criticism, not with propaganda. It is not the US government, nor the so called "free world" (whatever that is) that has a saying and a moral stance on this, they only represent geopolitical interests, which will readily endorse human rights violations if they advance such interests.
Arjen wrote: October 24th, 2020, 9:20 am This is not about synthetic hair. Slave labour is 1 thing, but you know as well as I do that the Uyghur camps are not just about slave labour.
Actually, you don't know yourself as a fact what's exactly happening at the Chinese facilities. Any sources other than the US government?
Arjen wrote: October 24th, 2020, 9:20 am Should I emotionally go along with whitewashing genocide?
Most of the sources criticizing Chinese treatment of the Uyghurs talk about "cultural genocide". I suspect that if it were something worst than "cultural", like plain literal genocide, they would have not gone in the trouble of giving it a softer label.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
creation
Posts: 1172
Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Uyghur

Post by creation »

Arjen wrote: September 27th, 2020, 2:16 pm Recently, Mulan made headlines concerning looking away from the CCP's atrocities.
We see hashtags like:
#StandwithHongKong
#StandwithHumanRights
#BoycotMulan

I suppose everyone knows about the concentration camps containing the Uyghur minority. Some reports say 1 million are in camps like that, others say 3-5 million. Many never come back. Some come back really "disturbed" after years. In this article, for example, a clear idea can be found concerning what is going on:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... dden_camps
More disturbingly, this parallel exists:
http://auschwitz.org/en/gallery/exhibit ... mes,1.html (no good link; it is about the tons of human hair)
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/c ... index.html

The idea is horrifying, but as now 500000 Tibetans are reportedly also in camps:
https://canadafreepress.com/article/chi ... bour-camps
https://nypost.com/2020/09/22/china-rep ... bor-camps/
And by my own calculations 10000 arrested in the last few months in HK:
https://www.dw.com/en/chinas-influence- ... a-54842597

It can't be denied that the CCP is doing something with the population that is not Han-Chinese.

People call it Chinazi nowadays and the leader Xitler. Communism is a form of fascism ofcourse, but until Xitler's rise, I think everyone was happy with the breath of fresh air that was going through China. Since the CCPvirus, we see many military escalations:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/05/23/in ... kirmishes/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-taiw ... SKBN25M0VE
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... nds-switch
etc.

Are we ramping up to a 3rd world war against Chinazi?
Should the free world strike hard and fast, or try to talk teh CCP out of these human rights violations?
What is your opinons?
If EVERY one in the, so called, "free world" or not looked at their own human right violations, openly and honestly, FIRST, before they started looking at "other's" human right violations, then this would be much better.
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Uyghur

Post by Arjen »

I don't think that is a good idea. No way all problems can be solved any time soon and in the mean time entire populations will disappear. What's wrong with you? Don't you care about human lives and human rights?
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophers' Lounge”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021