Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

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LuckyR
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by LuckyR »

Belindi wrote: November 19th, 2020, 6:57 am
LuckyR wrote: November 19th, 2020, 2:52 am

No, I mean that the vast majority of male circumcisions of newborns are decided by the parents, as opposed to church elders or some other Authority cabal.
Be that as it may be, parents are influenced by their cultures of belief; usually sort of in proportion as the parent concerned can view those beliefs objectively.

What I have in mind is not a cabal of elders or secret police, but more subtle influencers such as traditional myths , and/or need for solidarity with peers.
True, though you can carry it another step and say that the uncircumcised newborn baby boy can grow up to majority and be equally influenced in the identical way to get his adult circumcision for the identical reasons.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Belindi »

LuckyR wrote: November 20th, 2020, 2:15 am
Belindi wrote: November 19th, 2020, 6:57 am
Be that as it may be, parents are influenced by their cultures of belief; usually sort of in proportion as the parent concerned can view those beliefs objectively.

What I have in mind is not a cabal of elders or secret police, but more subtle influencers such as traditional myths , and/or need for solidarity with peers.
True, though you can carry it another step and say that the uncircumcised newborn baby boy can grow up to majority and be equally influenced in the identical way to get his adult circumcision for the identical reasons.
I can view it the way you say, Lucky. This is the keystone of the opposing views:which is to be the boss, the individual or the culture. I say the individual should be the moral agent not the culture. I have faith in progress when it's combined with reason. In cases of parents defying a powerfully enforced tradition of male or female circumcision I'd support the parents. In cases of parents defying the law of a free country to have their child circumcised I'd support the law.

I can't justify clinging on to any traditional and undeveloped culture for nothing but sentimental reasons.
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by LuckyR »

Belindi wrote: November 20th, 2020, 6:07 am
LuckyR wrote: November 20th, 2020, 2:15 am

True, though you can carry it another step and say that the uncircumcised newborn baby boy can grow up to majority and be equally influenced in the identical way to get his adult circumcision for the identical reasons.
I can view it the way you say, Lucky. This is the keystone of the opposing views:which is to be the boss, the individual or the culture. I say the individual should be the moral agent not the culture. I have faith in progress when it's combined with reason. In cases of parents defying a powerfully enforced tradition of male or female circumcision I'd support the parents. In cases of parents defying the law of a free country to have their child circumcised I'd support the law.

I can't justify clinging on to any traditional and undeveloped culture for nothing but sentimental reasons.
Yes, there are cultural traditions of minimal benefit and risk. Some involve body modification. They therefore don't have a compelling logical reason for existing. Ear piercing falls into this category. So your ears aren't pierced, right?
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Belindi »

LuckyR wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 2:10 am
Belindi wrote: November 20th, 2020, 6:07 am
I can view it the way you say, Lucky. This is the keystone of the opposing views:which is to be the boss, the individual or the culture. I say the individual should be the moral agent not the culture. I have faith in progress when it's combined with reason. In cases of parents defying a powerfully enforced tradition of male or female circumcision I'd support the parents. In cases of parents defying the law of a free country to have their child circumcised I'd support the law.

I can't justify clinging on to any traditional and undeveloped culture for nothing but sentimental reasons.
Yes, there are cultural traditions of minimal benefit and risk. Some involve body modification. They therefore don't have a compelling logical reason for existing. Ear piercing falls into this category. So your ears aren't pierced, right?
Rather! I dislike seeing little girls in bikinis or sexualised make-up.I dislike any premature sexualisation of children. This could be because my culture recognises childhood as a thing.So be it.

If an adult wants to be trepanned for reasons of some superstition that would be less bad than child circumcision as at least an adult may be sort of autonomous whereas a child cannot be autonomous.

Body piercing might be an art form that can express important messages. I doubt it, but maybe. Anyway, that is the only way I could justify it completely. If body piercing is done for reasons of peer pressure I don't approve, as peer pressure should be held to account which any proper existentialist will agree with.
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Belindi »

Belindi wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 6:49 am
LuckyR wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 2:10 am

Yes, there are cultural traditions of minimal benefit and risk. Some involve body modification. They therefore don't have a compelling logical reason for existing. Ear piercing falls into this category. So your ears aren't pierced, right?
Rather! I dislike seeing little girls in bikinis or sexualised make-up.I dislike any premature sexualisation of children. This could be because my culture recognises childhood as a thing.So be it.

If an adult wants to be trepanned for reasons of some superstition that would be less bad than child circumcision as at least an adult may be sort of autonomous whereas a child cannot be autonomous.

If a fond mother brings her child to have her ears pierced, that would be less bad in my opinion than making a child cruel or ignorant. It all depends.

Body piercing might be an art form that can express important messages. I doubt it, but maybe. Anyway, that is the only way I could justify it completely. If body piercing is done for reasons of peer pressure I don't approve, as peer pressure should be held to account which any proper existentialist will agree with.
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by LuckyR »

Belindi wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 6:49 am
LuckyR wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 2:10 am

Yes, there are cultural traditions of minimal benefit and risk. Some involve body modification. They therefore don't have a compelling logical reason for existing. Ear piercing falls into this category. So your ears aren't pierced, right?
Rather! I dislike seeing little girls in bikinis or sexualised make-up.I dislike any premature sexualisation of children. This could be because my culture recognises childhood as a thing.So be it.

If an adult wants to be trepanned for reasons of some superstition that would be less bad than child circumcision as at least an adult may be sort of autonomous whereas a child cannot be autonomous.

Body piercing might be an art form that can express important messages. I doubt it, but maybe. Anyway, that is the only way I could justify it completely. If body piercing is done for reasons of peer pressure I don't approve, as peer pressure should be held to account which any proper existentialist will agree with.
To review, you could "justify... completely" a form of otherwise useless body modification if it was an art form that can express important messages. I bet that Jews and Muslims would feel comfortable with the wording of expressing an important message as per male circumcision.

Barring that, to your eye a major (perhaps the major) issue with newborn male circumcision is autonomy specifically, since adult circs are much less of an issue. In that you are in step with current US parent's practice.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Belindi »

LuckyR wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 7:47 pm
Belindi wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 6:49 am

Rather! I dislike seeing little girls in bikinis or sexualised make-up.I dislike any premature sexualisation of children. This could be because my culture recognises childhood as a thing.So be it.

If an adult wants to be trepanned for reasons of some superstition that would be less bad than child circumcision as at least an adult may be sort of autonomous whereas a child cannot be autonomous.

Body piercing might be an art form that can express important messages. I doubt it, but maybe. Anyway, that is the only way I could justify it completely. If body piercing is done for reasons of peer pressure I don't approve, as peer pressure should be held to account which any proper existentialist will agree with.
To review, you could "justify... completely" a form of otherwise useless body modification if it was an art form that can express important messages. I bet that Jews and Muslims would feel comfortable with the wording of expressing an important message as per male circumcision.

Barring that, to your eye a major (perhaps the major) issue with newborn male circumcision is autonomy specifically, since adult circs are much less of an issue. In that you are in step with current US parent's practice.
God's reputed fascination with foreskins is not reasonable. However, if an adult makes a free and unforced decision to have his cut off and I was a medic being asked to do it, I'd not refuse on ethical grounds.

My favourite definition of 'work of art' excludes religious rituals unless these display extraordinary expertise together with no harm such as the church music of Bach.
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