Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

[LuckyR]

Both were never been universally accepted. Here in my country, until now, there are people who condemn cutting the genitals by choice or being a transgender for that matter.

Whe I write universally accepted I don't mean found acceptable by every single person in the world, I mean is not punished ie people are free to choose to do this to their son if they so desire and face no punishment nor social ostracism. So even in your country, whichever that might be, it is regarded as an acceptable parental choice and parents who choose to do this to their sons are accepted in society and are not punished. they are free to apply for any job including those with small children which would not be possible if they were merely suspected of unacceptable serious child abuse.

An accurate summary of the status quo. Some will explain it by supposing that there is a logical reason for this reality. Others will assume that "society" is seriously mistaken and that a vocal minority is correct in their appraisal of the situation and the mistaken majority need to be enlightened.

[Belindi]

I am prejudiced in favour of empowering women from all ethnic bondage, whether that be FGM or the glass ceiling in employment prospects.
My prejudice extends also to men who need liberating from the bondage of traditional Authorities, and to become loyal to friendship, kindness, and reason.

Genital mutilation, both sexes, is practically irreversible and is aimed at subduing the individual to the will of whatever Authority thinks it is the boss.

[LuckyR]

I am prejudiced in favour of empowering women from all ethnic bondage, whether that be FGM or the glass ceiling in employment prospects.
My prejudice extends also to men who need liberating from the bondage of traditional Authorities, and to become loyal to friendship, kindness, and reason.

Genital mutilation, both sexes, is practically irreversible and is aimed at subduing the individual to the will of whatever Authority thinks it is the boss.

In reality, the "whatever Authority" are your parents (not a cabal of the Illuminati).

[SimonP]

Whe I write universally accepted I don't mean found acceptable by every single person in the world, I mean is not punished ie people are free to choose to do this to their son if they so desire and face no punishment nor social ostracism. So even in your country, whichever that might be, it is regarded as an acceptable parental choice and parents who choose to do this to their sons are accepted in society and are not punished. they are free to apply for any job including those with small children which would not be possible if they were merely suspected of unacceptable serious child abuse.

An accurate summary of the status quo. Some will explain it by supposing that there is a logical reason for this reality. Others will assume that "society" is seriously mistaken and that a vocal minority is correct in their appraisal of the situation and the mistaken majority need to be enlightened.

Right, so let's resolve this dispute, it's really not so difficult and then figure out why the latter has come about.

[SimonP]

I am prejudiced in favour of empowering women from all ethnic bondage, whether that be FGM or the glass ceiling in employment prospects.
My prejudice extends also to men who need liberating from the bondage of traditional Authorities, and to become loyal to friendship, kindness, and reason.

Genital mutilation, both sexes, is practically irreversible and is aimed at subduing the individual to the will of whatever Authority thinks it is the boss.

What exactly is the distinction your trying to make here between the "ethnic bondage" of FGM and the "bondage of traditional authorities" of MGM? For example what exactly is the difference between the traditional Bondo authorities requiring women to be genitaly mutilated and the traditional Poro authorities requiring men to be genitally mutilated?

I have informed you several times that the most common form of genital mutilation of girls does not involve the loss of a body part unlike that of boys and that no permanent damage is caused, so why do you make this claim? i have even linked to a video showing a pricking and mentioned that prosecution cases in the West have often pivoted on evidence for whether there has actually been genital mutilation or not. How can genital mutilation in such cases be "practically irrerversible"?

[SimonP]

I am prejudiced in favour of empowering women from all ethnic bondage, whether that be FGM or the glass ceiling in employment prospects.
My prejudice extends also to men who need liberating from the bondage of traditional Authorities, and to become loyal to friendship, kindness, and reason.

Genital mutilation, both sexes, is practically irreversible and is aimed at subduing the individual to the will of whatever Authority thinks it is the boss.

In reality, the "whatever Authority" are your parents (not a cabal of the Illuminati).

Not true, for example in Sierre Leone FGM is banned by the state authority but mandatory by the Bondo authorities and in both cases it is not regarded as a parental authority to decide.

[LuckyR]

In reality, the "whatever Authority" are your parents (not a cabal of the Illuminati).

Not true, for example in Sierre Leone FGM is banned by the state authority but mandatory by the Bondo authorities and in both cases it is not regarded as a parental authority to decide.

Seriously? The Bondo number 12,000 total. What's that? 0.0002% of people? Talk about the exception that proves the rule...

I stand by my post (99.9998% of the time).

As an aside I was referring to male circs, so I guess I'm right 100% of the time.

[SimonP]

Not true, for example in Sierre Leone FGM is banned by the state authority but mandatory by the Bondo authorities and in both cases it is not regarded as a parental authority to decide.

Seriously? The Bondo number 12,000 total. What's that? 0.0002% of people? Talk about the exception that proves the rule...

I stand by my post (99.9998% of the time).

As an aside I was referring to male circs, so I guess I'm right 100% of the time.

You don't understand the concept of an example? Seriously?

This is generally true with two authorities, religious and the state.

Where did the 12,000 figure come from anyway? In Sierre Leone almost 90% of women are members of Bondo so there are millions not thousands.

[SimonP]

In Sweden a Syrian man has just been found guilty of mutilating nine boys genitals with a soldering iron, giving them lifelong disfigurement. This crime gave a three months suspended prison sentence and 180 hours community service. Parents who had paid the man to mutilate their children weren't charged with any offence. Now imagine what would have happened if ther'd been talk of girls genitals, which you would all likely have heard about right? A good example illustrating the question asked in this topic.

http://www.anholt-laering.dk/omskaer/ar ... ekolbe.pdf

[Sy Borg]

In Sweden a Syrian man has just been found guilty of mutilating nine boys genitals with a soldering iron, giving them lifelong disfigurement. This crime gave a three months suspended prison sentence and 180 hours community service. Parents who had paid the man to mutilate their children weren't charged with any offence. Now imagine what would have happened if ther'd been talk of girls genitals, which you would all likely have heard about right? A good example illustrating the question asked in this topic.

http://www.anholt-laering.dk/omskaer/ar ... ekolbe.pdf

Your speculation is an insubstantial and jaundiced assumption. There must be Swedish case law records that refer to sentences for equivalent FGM crimes too, which would have set precedents in that jurisdiction.

While you are writing pages about your outrage against the behaviour of other people's countries, spare a thought for the women of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Congo, Mali, Sudan, Chad, Niger, Somalia, Sierra Leone etc. You won't be able to name a single country in the world that treats boys and men as badly as those jurisdictions treat women, not even remotely close. So any of us can use a philosophy forum to lobby against any number of injustices, to the point where the entire forum is devoted to poeple lobbying their causes.

The reason most people at the forum don't spend their time lobbying is they are more interested in philosophy.

[SimonP]

In Sweden a Syrian man has just been found guilty of mutilating nine boys genitals with a soldering iron, giving them lifelong disfigurement. This crime gave a three months suspended prison sentence and 180 hours community service. Parents who had paid the man to mutilate their children weren't charged with any offence. Now imagine what would have happened if ther'd been talk of girls genitals, which you would all likely have heard about right? A good example illustrating the question asked in this topic.

http://www.anholt-laering.dk/omskaer/ar ... ekolbe.pdf

Your speculation is an insubstantial and jaundiced assumption. There must be Swedish case law records that refer to sentences for equivalent FGM crimes too, which would have set precedents in that jurisdiction.

While you are writing pages about your outrage against the behaviour of other people's countries, spare a thought for the women of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Congo, Mali, Sudan, Chad, Niger, Somalia, Sierra Leone etc. You won't be able to name a single country in the world that treats boys and men as badly as those jurisdictions treat women, not even remotely close. So any of us can use a philosophy forum to lobby against any number of injustices, to the point where the entire forum is devoted to poeple lobbying their causes.

The reason most people at the forum don't spend their time lobbying is they are more interested in philosophy.

So straight away an ad hominem attack launched against me from the person complaining about ad hominem! As it happens you have zero evidence to back your claim just a "There must be ...", er no, check up just a little bit about the subject because obviously you have no idea how difficult it has been to find cases to prosecute throughout the West so most countries have seen no prosecutions, let alone convictions for decades. There has not been a single case anywhere in the developed world where a cutter has gone down to their local ironmogers to buy equipment for their cutting business, not in Sweden and not anywhere. What's more it would not have set a precedent for this case for precisely the reason this topic is all about, ethically and legally the cutting of female genitalia is considered very differently from that of male genitalia and you will not find any jurisdiction in the world, where the punishment for mutilatng female genitilia sets a precedent for that of mutilating male genitalia. You spout absolute nonsense!

My outrage includes every single country in the world and in particular the Western world including my own, in which there is now a suggestion that genital mutilation should now be done in our public hospitals!

Take a look at the subject of this topic again, it is not about general inequality between the sexes but very specifically that of genital cutting. If you were really so concerned about sexual equality then you would have a completely different mindset from that which you have shown in this thread. You are essentially no different from the men in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Congo, Mali, Sudan, Chad, Niger, Somalia, Sierra Leone etc. who treat women badly simply because they have been socially conditioned to think that way. You have been socially conditioned to treat the torture of babies genitals very differently when the genitals belong to a girl than when they belong to a boy. It's exactly the same and just like almost all of them, you cannot break free of it, no matter how glaringly obvious it is for a rational mind. A true interest in philosophy demands an open rational mind.

[Sy Borg]

Enough. This is a place for philosophy, not false accusations and politicking.

[Belindi]

Not true, for example in Sierre Leone FGM is banned by the state authority but mandatory by the Bondo authorities and in both cases it is not regarded as a parental authority to decide.

Seriously? The Bondo number 12,000 total. What's that? 0.0002% of people? Talk about the exception that proves the rule...

I stand by my post (99.9998% of the time).

As an aside I was referring to male circs, so I guess I'm right 100% of the time.

Do you mean every Mende man and woman once initiated is a lifelong member of the Poro and Sande respectively?

[LuckyR]

Seriously? The Bondo number 12,000 total. What's that? 0.0002% of people? Talk about the exception that proves the rule...

I stand by my post (99.9998% of the time).

As an aside I was referring to male circs, so I guess I'm right 100% of the time.

Do you mean every Mende man and woman once initiated is a lifelong member of the Poro and Sande respectively?

No, I mean that the vast majority of male circumcisions of newborns are decided by the parents, as opposed to church elders or some other Authority cabal.

[Belindi]

Do you mean every Mende man and woman once initiated is a lifelong member of the Poro and Sande respectively?

No, I mean that the vast majority of male circumcisions of newborns are decided by the parents, as opposed to church elders or some other Authority cabal.

Be that as it may be, parents are influenced by their cultures of belief; usually sort of in proportion as the parent concerned can view those beliefs objectively.

What I have in mind is not a cabal of elders or secret police, but more subtle influencers such as traditional myths , and/or need for solidarity with peers.