Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Terrapin Station »

SimonP wrote: November 7th, 2020, 12:09 pm All communities which practice FGC also practice MGC whereas most communities that practice MGC do not practice FGC so clearly FGC is not as widespread,
So you're not disagreeing with me that male circumcision has historically been more widespread then?

Look, either male circumcision is more widespread than female circumcision or it isn't. Which one are you arguing?

I'm cutting out most of your text because I'm asking you simple questions. I'm not interested in a bunch of blah blah blahing that's not simply, directly answering what I'm asking you.
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by SimonP »

Terrapin Station wrote: November 7th, 2020, 5:32 pm
SimonP wrote: November 7th, 2020, 12:09 pm All communities which practice FGC also practice MGC whereas most communities that practice MGC do not practice FGC so clearly FGC is not as widespread,
So you're not disagreeing with me that male circumcision has historically been more widespread then?

Look, either male circumcision is more widespread than female circumcision or it isn't. Which one are you arguing?

I'm cutting out most of your text because I'm asking you simple questions. I'm not interested in a bunch of blah blah blahing that's not simply, directly answering what I'm asking you.
Historically GC goes back at least 60,000 years, likely more than 100,000 years, and for the vast majority of that time we simply cannnot know MGC was more prevalent than FGC however going by surviving African tradition it seems likely. So I'm quite prepared to accept that you are likely right although I think you are referring to only the last few thousand years.

I have repeatedly stated that male cutting is more widespread than female - in the order of 8 times.

Sometimes questions cannot be answered with a simple yes/no, in particular if they are of a complex form with multiple claims.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Terrapin Station »

SimonP wrote: November 7th, 2020, 6:01 pm So I'm quite prepared to accept that you are likely right although I think you are referring to only the last few thousand years.

I have repeatedly stated that male cutting is more widespread than female - in the order of 8 times.
Okay, well, a big part of what I was saying is simply that male circumcision has been more widespread in recent history.
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Sy Borg »

SimonP wrote: November 7th, 2020, 6:19 am
You continue to make sweeping claims of my "obvious errors" while failing to apologise for past mistakes.
I'll apologise for my mistake if you apologise for yours if it will stem this flood of ad hominem attacks against me that you seem to think is okay on the forum.

Only a potential perceived conflict of interest has allowed you to trample me the way you have done. If it was anyone but me, you would have had two board warnings by now. So, by all means keep enjoy attacking me personally, but I advise that you watch your step with other members.
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Sy Borg »

Terrapin Station wrote: November 7th, 2020, 6:17 pm
SimonP wrote: November 7th, 2020, 6:01 pm So I'm quite prepared to accept that you are likely right although I think you are referring to only the last few thousand years.

I have repeatedly stated that male cutting is more widespread than female - in the order of 8 times.
Okay, well, a big part of what I was saying is simply that male circumcision has been more widespread in recent history.
How much of that would relate to rites of manhood in indigenous societies? It is common for very harsh things to be done to boys in many traditional societies. And it's not a case of women doing these things to men. Men are doing it to themselves. So it goes.
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by SimonP »

Greta wrote: November 7th, 2020, 8:23 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: November 7th, 2020, 6:17 pm
Okay, well, a big part of what I was saying is simply that male circumcision has been more widespread in recent history.
How much of that would relate to rites of manhood in indigenous societies? It is common for very harsh things to be done to boys in many traditional societies. And it's not a case of women doing these things to men. Men are doing it to themselves. So it goes.
It's not done to men, it's done to children and there's no ritual where it's self inflicted.

It's not about men doing things to men, or women doing things to women but the outgoing generation doing it to the incoming generation to ensure the communities continued existance and their legacy in it.

It is also common, though less common than for boys, for very harsh things to be done to girls in many traditional societies and here it is women doing "things" to girls. Just as women play a role in forcing these harsh things on boys, so do men play a role in forcing them on girls, through shunning. Neonatal boys are cut in America for their future wives just as Leyla Hussein was cut in Africa for her future husband: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKT1MX-RnmU
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Greta wrote: November 7th, 2020, 8:23 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: November 7th, 2020, 6:17 pm
Okay, well, a big part of what I was saying is simply that male circumcision has been more widespread in recent history.
How much of that would relate to rites of manhood in indigenous societies? It is common for very harsh things to be done to boys in many traditional societies. And it's not a case of women doing these things to men. Men are doing it to themselves. So it goes.
That is possibly the most ansurd and bigoted thing you have said in a long while.
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Belindi »

Sculptor1 wrote: November 8th, 2020, 7:25 am
Greta wrote: November 7th, 2020, 8:23 pm

How much of that would relate to rites of manhood in indigenous societies? It is common for very harsh things to be done to boys in many traditional societies. And it's not a case of women doing these things to men. Men are doing it to themselves. So it goes.
That is possibly the most ansurd and bigoted thing you have said in a long while.
Greta is right . There is plenty of authentic social anthropology relating to for instance the Poro secret society of the Temne and Mende peoples of Sierra Leone. The secret society initiates boys into adult life and is vastly important for continuation of societal governance and practice. Psychologically, rituals help people to cooperate.
There is also a secret society for girls' initiation.
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Ecurb »

Sculptor1 wrote: November 8th, 2020, 7:25 am
Greta wrote: November 7th, 2020, 8:23 pm

How much of that would relate to rites of manhood in indigenous societies? It is common for very harsh things to be done to boys in many traditional societies. And it's not a case of women doing these things to men. Men are doing it to themselves. So it goes.
That is possibly the most ansurd and bigoted thing you have said in a long while.
As usual, Sculptor accuses others of bigotry while playing the bigot himself. Let's see: a religious ritual practiced by Jews and Moslems (among others) is horribly evil because it confers no medical benefits.

Sculptor reminds me of Christopher Hitchens accusing Mother Theresa of failing to provide medical care at her hospices. Mother Theresa was a nun, not a doctor. Her role was spiritual, not medical.

Are we going to ban Judaism and Islam because Sculptor disapproves of them and their practices? Shall we force Muslims to eat pork, and Hindus to dine on steak? Or (shocking, I know) do we simply allow people to have some degree of personal freedom?
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by SimonP »

Belindi wrote: November 8th, 2020, 7:48 am
Sculptor1 wrote: November 8th, 2020, 7:25 am
That is possibly the most ansurd and bigoted thing you have said in a long while.
Greta is right . There is plenty of authentic social anthropology relating to for instance the Poro secret society of the Temne and Mende peoples of Sierra Leone. The secret society initiates boys into adult life and is vastly important for continuation of societal governance and practice. Psychologically, rituals help people to cooperate.
There is also a secret society for girls' initiation.
Indeed there is, the Bondo secret society that similarly initiates girls into adult life and is just as important, showing that Greta is painting the wrong picture. Just as boys suffer harsh treatment so do girls in corresponding rituals:

"When you are operated on, you are completely undressed and sat firmly on a stone, legs open and face turned upwards. The operation was painful, as a large part of my vagina was cut. Those women who operate use the same knife and the same razor on all the girls. Later, they use the same knife to clean the parts badly operated on.
When a girl is operated on, it is completely forbidden to show cowardice and if she shows signs of fear, the people leave the operation place immediately. The father, the mother and the brothers of the girl carry knives and sticks and at the least sign of cowardice, they stab or beat her all over.
When I was operated on, my father refused to accompany me, as he feared that I would not bear it. My mother and the other family who accompanied me covered me with pearls after the operation. One of the fifteen girls operated on with us did not remain firm enough during the operation. She blinked her eyes and the people ran away shouting, even the woman operating. They abandoned us until midday when the women who operate came back to clean the parts of the vagina that had been left. Her mother wanted to hang herself, but the people stopped her and took her away from the tree in which she had climbed. Her older sisters, who had been operated on before, had been brave and had not shown signs of weakness. She was the last born in the family. Until now, she has not married, as no man would want to marry a girl who has not been brave during the operation. She has children by different men, as no man will accept her as a legal wife. She is the laughing stock of the community."

http://underatree.overblog.com/pokot-beauty

You will only find this kind of testimony on the net, no video due to Western double standards addressed in this topic but here you can see what is expected of bravery with a boy and it is no different for a girl: http://www.circumstitions.com/Images/vi ... deglov.mp4

I have been banned from Twitter after completely false but sustained accusations of pedophilia for posting a link to a Youtube video of a neonatal circumcision from around half a century ago. There are powerful forces enforcing cultural norms and Western culture is no different.
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by SimonP »

Ecurb wrote: November 8th, 2020, 11:25 am
Sculptor1 wrote: November 8th, 2020, 7:25 am
That is possibly the most ansurd and bigoted thing you have said in a long while.
As usual, Sculptor accuses others of bigotry while playing the bigot himself. Let's see: a religious ritual practiced by Jews and Moslems (among others) is horribly evil because it confers no medical benefits.

Sculptor reminds me of Christopher Hitchens accusing Mother Theresa of failing to provide medical care at her hospices. Mother Theresa was a nun, not a doctor. Her role was spiritual, not medical.

Are we going to ban Judaism and Islam because Sculptor disapproves of them and their practices? Shall we force Muslims to eat pork, and Hindus to dine on steak? Or (shocking, I know) do we simply allow people to have some degree of personal freedom?
There's plenty of bigotry here!

Well I guess this will come as a surprise for you but personal freedom does not extend to amputating healthy body parts off another person, even if it is a firmly held religious belief.
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Ecurb »

SimonP wrote: November 8th, 2020, 12:04 pm

Well I guess this will come as a surprise for you but personal freedom does not extend to amputating healthy body parts off another person, even if it is a firmly held religious belief.
I'd suggest that a relatively harmless ritual that has been practiced for 3 millenia without horribly ill effects constitues a reasonable choice. Obviously, you disagree about the effects being minimal, although Jews and Muslims seem to be thriving. Much ado about nothing, as Shakespeare might say.

Sould parents be allowed to cut their children's hair, or clip their finger nails? Same principle, isn't it?
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Belindi wrote: November 8th, 2020, 7:48 am
Sculptor1 wrote: November 8th, 2020, 7:25 am
That is possibly the most absurd and bigoted thing you have said in a long while.
Greta is right . There is plenty of authentic social anthropology relating to for instance the Poro secret society of the Temne and Mende peoples of Sierra Leone. The secret society initiates boys into adult life and is vastly important for continuation of societal governance and practice. Psychologically, rituals help people to cooperate.
There is also a secret society for girls' initiation.
And that is exactly the same for many Islamic sub-cultures in the case of FGM.
That does not mean its not child abuse.
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Ecurb wrote: November 8th, 2020, 12:10 pm
SimonP wrote: November 8th, 2020, 12:04 pm

Well I guess this will come as a surprise for you but personal freedom does not extend to amputating healthy body parts off another person, even if it is a firmly held religious belief.
I'd suggest that a relatively harmless ritual that has been practiced for 3 millenia without horribly ill effects constitues a reasonable choice. Obviously, you disagree about the effects being minimal, although Jews and Muslims seem to be thriving. Much ado about nothing, as Shakespeare might say.

Sould parents be allowed to cut their children's hair, or clip their finger nails? Same principle, isn't it?
No ill effects if you are ignorant.
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Re: Why is the ethics of cutting in the genitals of children so different dependning on the sex of the child?

Post by SimonP »

Ecurb wrote: November 8th, 2020, 12:10 pm
SimonP wrote: November 8th, 2020, 12:04 pm

Well I guess this will come as a surprise for you but personal freedom does not extend to amputating healthy body parts off another person, even if it is a firmly held religious belief.
I'd suggest that a relatively harmless ritual that has been practiced for 3 millenia without horribly ill effects constitues a reasonable choice. Obviously, you disagree about the effects being minimal, although Jews and Muslims seem to be thriving. Much ado about nothing, as Shakespeare might say.

Sould parents be allowed to cut their children's hair, or clip their finger nails? Same principle, isn't it?
Lot's of harmful cultural practices have and still are practiced as they have beeen through thousands of years, by different peoples, however that in no way justifies their continuation. Everything is relative however looking at what is not regarded as relatively harmless these days, amputating a significant, unique part of the genitals leaving a permanent disfigurement can hardly be described as relatively harmless.

Your comparison to cutting nails and hair is shocking. This is the cutting of dead tissue which is produced all the time through constant growth. No nerves are cut, no pain, no bleeding, no disfigurement etc etc.

You also have a strange notion of what is harm. Do you consider upskirting as harmless if the victim never knows about it?
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