Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

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Sy Borg
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

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impermanence wrote: January 5th, 2021, 11:58 am
Greta wrote: January 5th, 2021, 1:06 am
As I said, the apparent short-term prognosis is a nightmare. Medium term is far from promising - for humans. Long-term, though, I am confident that there is a grand future ahead for post-humans. Think of it as akin to the future of apes. For most apes, the 21st century will bring extinction in the wild, wiped out by one particular type of ape that fulfilled more of the potentials of the ape mind.

A small percentage of humans too will transcend and leave the rest in their dust. The trends are clear. Non-empowered humans, though, are doomed, and we are clearly on track to wipe ourselves out with delusionality, corruption, dishonesty and tribalism. I may be optimistic but I have no interest in rose-tinted glasses or euphemisms. As I say, an omelette requires broken eggs.
Optimistic? :)

The great thing about life is that we really have no clue what's going to happen. I was down the YouTube rabbit hole the other night and came upon a portion of one of my favorite TV shows when I was a kid back in the 60's called, "The 21st Century," with the American news icon Walter Cronkite narrating. This episode was about what the house of the year 2001 would look and be like. Other than getting the big TV and computer influences correct, everything else was a pipe-dream and waaaay off [and they were only predicting 34 years ahead].

The reason it is so difficult to predict the future is that 99.9% of what determines it has not occurred as of yet, so with the acceleration of technology and other transformations taking place, it's nearly impossible to know what's coming down. Even somebody as brilliant as Karl Marx had no idea what he was talking about when he thought he could interpolate forward.

Don't be so negative. Sure things are going to be challenging for a while as society goes through this transition [and who knows, perhaps WWIII is in the offing] but you never know what good will come from it, as well. Stay positive and try to enjoy yourself. You must admit, Greta, it's amazing time to be alive!
My view is far sunnier than most, much more so than yours. You see long term possibilities for average humans (as opposed to a post-human future), which is akin to apes hoping that humans won't evolve. The result would be an Earth that simply dies without sending its "seeds" (3D printers) to other worlds.

The future is easy to predict. The impossible aspects are those most subject to chaos: 1) the timing of events and 2) the path of events leading to predictable futures. Predicting thirty-four years into the future is vastly more difficult than predicting roughly what happens in the very long term.

We know the Sun will expand to become a red giant. We know that the oceans will boil away entirely within a billion years, and that terrestrial life will be gone long before that time. We know that biology and space do not mix, and that any human modified to survive in space will no longer be recognisably human (ie. post-human).

Humans have no future but our machines do. The only questions will be 1) if there is any natural human brain tissue within those machines 2) if the machines can become sentient - or both.

There is a glorious future ahead, just not for humans as we know them, who are a simpler form of what is to follow. From what you have seen of humans, do you think their loss would be a bad thing? Everything about humans - aside from what's happening at the top - screams that we are due for extinction. We are incapable of sustainability, of controlling our numbers, of controlling our consumption, of controlling our violent urges and we keep falling for sweet lies to avoid hard truths. As you noted, we cannot even control our appetites.

Corporations and machines are the future. That is not dystopian - they are the "good guys". The villains are the blind and hate-filled masses and the media organisations that pander to their worst instincts (the corporate "ecosystem" has its parasites too). You could say that I am so far right wing that I go right around the political dial to the left :)

The only reason I vote for parties that try to slow inequality is because 1) right wing parties are too corrupt and 2) slow change beds down better than fact change (and I am sentimental about the inevitable and rapid eradication of non-human animals). Otherwise, I am very much in the corporations' corner, hence my optimism.
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by impermanence »

Greta wrote: January 5th, 2021, 3:44 pm The future is easy to predict. The impossible aspects are those most subject to chaos: 1) the timing of events and 2) the path of events leading to predictable futures. Predicting thirty-four years into the future is vastly more difficult than predicting roughly what happens in the very long term.

We know the Sun will expand to become a red giant. We know that the oceans will boil away entirely within a billion years, and that terrestrial life will be gone long before that time. We know that biology and space do not mix, and that any human modified to survive in space will no longer be recognizably human (ie. post-human).
I haven't found somebody this fun to chat with in many, many years! So many interesting ideas...
There is a glorious future ahead, just not for humans as we know them, who are a simpler form of what is to follow. From what you have seen of humans, do you think their loss would be a bad thing? Everything about humans - aside from what's happening at the top - screams that we are due for extinction. We are incapable of sustainability, of controlling our numbers, of controlling our consumption, of controlling our violent urges and we keep falling for sweet lies to avoid hard truths. As you noted, we cannot even control our appetites.
Everything comes and goes...
Corporations and machines are the future. That is not dystopian - they are the "good guys". The villains are the blind and hate-filled masses and the media organisations that pander to their worst instincts (the corporate "ecosystem" has its parasites too). You could say that I am so far right wing that I go right around the political dial to the left :)
Right and left really don't do much for me. It's like vanilla and chocolate. But it's the way to mass process, and that's what's most important in a world with 8B people.
The only reason I vote for parties that try to slow inequality is because 1) right wing parties are too corrupt and 2) slow change beds down better than fact change (and I am sentimental about the inevitable and rapid eradication of non-human animals). Otherwise, I am very much in the corporations' corner, hence my optimism.
Let's chat about corporations. It seems to me that you would have been in Religion's corner in 1500 CE. They had all the answers, as well. To me, corporations represent just about everything dark, i.e., name-less, soul-less, compassion-less bastions of pure evil.
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

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impermanence wrote: January 5th, 2021, 10:25 pmLet's chat about corporations. It seems to me that you would have been in Religion's corner in 1500 CE. They had all the answers, as well. To me, corporations represent just about everything dark, i.e., name-less, soul-less, compassion-less bastions of pure evil.
Not pure evil, just our competitors. They are to us what bands of early H. sapiens were to other apes. I expect they would have thought of these unbeatable bands of weapon-laden apes that outnumbered them and out-strategised them to be evil too.
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by Steve3007 »

impermanence wrote:
Steve3007 wrote:Yes. Immediate consequences. What are the immediate consequences of eating sugary foods or smoking?
The immediate consequences are the knowledge that [without others to bail your sorry ass out], your future will be not-so-wonderful...
I disagree that those are the immediate consequences. They certainly weren't for me when I started smoking.
impermanence wrote:Public anything sucks. It just the way it is.
I disagree. I think that free markets are a very good way for efficiently solving a specific class of problems using the profit motive to drive innovation and efficiency, but not all problems. I think their most notable failings are the inability to address long term problems where solutions don't result in immediate profits for individual players in the market, and problems involving "commons" - shared resources whose upkeep benefits all but which no individual player in the market has a motive to maintain unilaterally (and where they would, in fact, put themselves at a competitive disadvantage by doing so). That's where the public sector comes in. In my view policing/judiciary, healthcare, education and environmental protection are examples of where unfettered free markets are insufficient and where the public sector therefore needs to have a role. Libertarians generally only tend to agree with the first one, because they view only the first one as protecting individual liberties.
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

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Steve3007 wrote: January 5th, 2021, 12:23 pmMy main objection to the libertarian principle has always been that it oversimplifies and underestimates the extent to which the individuals in a society are connected.
Exactly.
Take, for example, the obesity epidemics among children -- preschool children! Are they to be held responsible for the food they eat? Should they be made to pay for the failings of their parents and caretakers?

Extreme libertarianism induces massive innocent casualties.
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

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impermanence wrote: January 5th, 2021, 2:55 pm
Steve3007 wrote: January 5th, 2021, 1:07 pm Yes. Immediate consequences. What are the immediate consequences of eating sugary foods or smoking?
The immediate consequences are the knowledge that [without others to bail your sorry ass out], your future will be not-so-wonderful. If that's not enough to motivate better choices, then so be it. You must treat adults like adults, otherwise you will only support poor behavior and their inevitable outcomes [the same results as spoiling children] .
Not at all. The consequences of eating junkfood, doing drugs etc. vary greatly from individual to individual.

There are, for example, people who have smoked their entire lives, yet they end up with only minor health problems. Some who never smoked end up with lung cancer. And so on. It's just not so simple as you make it out to be.
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by Steve3007 »

Greta wrote:The future is easy to predict. The impossible aspects are those most subject to chaos: 1) the timing of events and 2) the path of events leading to predictable futures. Predicting thirty-four years into the future is vastly more difficult than predicting roughly what happens in the very long term.
Great post generally (in the context of what I know of your views from numerous previous posts), but I like this particular part which makes the point that long term trends are often more reliably predictable than relatively short term details, for understandable reasons. Climate is more predictable than weather. Mid 20th Century pundits predicting that by now we'd all be wearing silvery suits and riding personal jetpacks is "weather". The long term future of the post human race, if it has one, is "climate".
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by impermanence »

Greta wrote: January 6th, 2021, 1:04 am
impermanence wrote: January 5th, 2021, 10:25 pmLet's chat about corporations. It seems to me that you would have been in Religion's corner in 1500 CE. They had all the answers, as well. To me, corporations represent just about everything dark, i.e., name-less, soul-less, compassion-less bastions of pure evil.
Not pure evil, just our competitors. They are to us what bands of early H. sapiens were to other apes. I expect they would have thought of these unbeatable bands of weapon-laden apes that outnumbered them and out-strategised them to be evil too.
Corporations are malignant groups. The power they hold destroys individuals and the laws that protect individuals to the point where they have completely consumed governance and have left us to deal with a fascist system [the worst of all worlds].

Many people believe that corporations are mostly good [on balance] because they accelerate technological progress, but this matters not. Wherever one happens to be [technologically], things can always be better so there is no winning [just take a look at how impressive your 40" flat screen TV looks today]. The secret to being content is to be ok wherever you happen to be .

An individual attempting to do economic battle [compete] with a corporation would be like that same individual attempting to do physical battle with a hundred thousand people. This is why there should be no such thing as for-profit corporations. Folks understood this a couple of hundred years ago.

I would be interested in your take on how you believe machines are going to become better than humans [and exactly what you define as "being human"].
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by impermanence »

Steve3007 wrote: January 6th, 2021, 5:26 am
impermanence wrote:The immediate consequences are the knowledge that [without others to bail your sorry ass out], your future will be not-so-wonderful...
I disagree that those are the immediate consequences. They certainly weren't for me when I started smoking.
Sure there were. Simply the fact that many people [perhaps the majority depending on when you started] are repulsed by smokers is consequence enough. And how about the consequences of those who had to inhale your second hand smoke?
impermanence wrote:Public anything sucks. It just the way it is.
I disagree. I think that free markets are a very good way for efficiently solving a specific class of problems using the profit motive to drive innovation and efficiency, but not all problems. I think their most notable failings are the inability to address long term problems where solutions don't result in immediate profits for individual players in the market, and problems involving "commons" - shared resources whose upkeep benefits all but which no individual player in the market has a motive to maintain unilaterally (and where they would, in fact, put themselves at a competitive disadvantage by doing so). That's where the public sector comes in. In my view policing/judiciary, healthcare, education and environmental protection are examples of where unfettered free markets are insufficient and where the public sector therefore needs to have a role. Libertarians generally only tend to agree with the first one, because they view only the first one as protecting individual liberties.
I do enjoy parks and there are few things better than a great library, but the BS that must come along with these things... .

If you could repair three issues, many of the problems we face as a society would attenuate greatly. The first is reducing the size of government as much as is possible. The second is to revoke all corporate charters and have only non-profit corporations with 10 year maximum charters. The third is to use real money. These three fixes would help in creating an environment where individuals can once again be creative and productive.

Again [ideally] you want just enough government to protect individual liberty and private property. Anything more always turns into tyranny.

Health care needs to be about health care not sick care so it really doesn't matter how it's being funded. Society cannot afford to keep everybody alive no matter how they abuse themselves or what issues they might have through no fault of their own.
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by impermanence »

baker wrote: January 6th, 2021, 6:41 am
Steve3007 wrote: January 5th, 2021, 12:23 pmMy main objection to the libertarian principle has always been that it oversimplifies and underestimates the extent to which the individuals in a society are connected.
Exactly.
Take, for example, the obesity epidemics among children -- preschool children! Are they to be held responsible for the food they eat? Should they be made to pay for the failings of their parents and caretakers?

Extreme libertarianism induces massive innocent casualties.
You want to be everybody's mom and dad? There are innocent causalities EVERYWHERE. Look at the insanity that governments unleash all over the world. And how about what corporations do? A lot of parents are incredibly irresponsible but does it just stop with eating? How about the ones that allow their children to become phone-zombies and every other dys-functional things that people do.

Are you going to fix everything that everybody does wrong or are you going to allow people the space to try to figure it out for themselves? This is the debate and unfortunately it is the people that think they know better that create the worst f******* hell-holes on this planet.

Freedom is the best way to go about anything [but you have to take the bad with the good].
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

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Steve3007 wrote: January 6th, 2021, 10:06 am
Greta wrote:The future is easy to predict. The impossible aspects are those most subject to chaos: 1) the timing of events and 2) the path of events leading to predictable futures. Predicting thirty-four years into the future is vastly more difficult than predicting roughly what happens in the very long term.
Great post generally (in the context of what I know of your views from numerous previous posts), but I like this particular part which makes the point that long term trends are often more reliably predictable than relatively short term details, for understandable reasons. Climate is more predictable than weather. Mid 20th Century pundits predicting that by now we'd all be wearing silvery suits and riding personal jetpacks is "weather". The long term future of the post human race, if it has one, is "climate".
Yes, predicting climate and weather are a classic example of how physics allows us to understand long term trends while the short term is too subject to chaos for the same reliability. Another example, relevant to humanity's future, is the Sun's future as a red giant, while we remain unable to predict solar flares and CMEs.
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

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impermanence wrote: January 6th, 2021, 12:48 pm
Greta wrote: January 6th, 2021, 1:04 am
Not pure evil, just our competitors. They are to us what bands of early H. sapiens were to other apes. I expect they would have thought of these unbeatable bands of weapon-laden apes that outnumbered them and out-strategised them to be evil too.
Corporations are malignant groups. The power they hold destroys individuals and the laws that protect individuals to the point where they have completely consumed governance and have left us to deal with a fascist system [the worst of all worlds].

Many people believe that corporations are mostly good [on balance] because they accelerate technological progress, but this matters not. Wherever one happens to be [technologically], things can always be better so there is no winning [just take a look at how impressive your 40" flat screen TV looks today]. The secret to being content is to be ok wherever you happen to be .

An individual attempting to do economic battle [compete] with a corporation would be like that same individual attempting to do physical battle with a hundred thousand people. This is why there should be no such thing as for-profit corporations. Folks understood this a couple of hundred years ago.

I would be interested in your take on how you believe machines are going to become better than humans [and exactly what you define as "being human"].
[A concerned chimp says to another] Humans are malignant. The power they hold destroys other chimps and the laws to which chimps abide. They control us chimps with their fascist system.

Many chimps think humans are interesting because they have cool technology, but this matters not. The secret to being content is to be ok wherever you happen to be, to just peel another banana and forget all this progress stuff.

A chimp attempting to compete with a human tribe would be like that same chimp attempting to do battle with a hundred chimps. This is why there should be no such thing as humans.

.......................

Same game, new time, new stage. Speed of technological change is not only important, but critical to a nation's survival.

If, say, the US banned corporations then their progress would slow enormously. Xi and the CCP would not only be able to plan a US takeover, they would be spoiled for choice as to how to do it.

Humans have always banded into ever larger groups to gain an advantage (as you say, one vs thousands). That is what religion is too - a group that separates itself from the many, banding together for a competitive advantage that has allowed them to strongly influence, and at times completely control, public policy. So the British Bubble Act of the 1700s was, in fact, disingenuous because the banning of independent organisations did not include religions.

So, sure, in a way corporations and other huge organisations, eg. CCP, political parties, religions are awful, certainly not good news for any unaligned individuals. But they are the future. As above, I expect that chimps thought humans were pretty awful too as they took over their lands with, to the chimps, would have been akin to a fascist system.
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

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impermanence wrote:The first is reducing the size of government as much as is possible.
I don't think any reasonable person would propose making government bigger than it needs to be. The debate (probably the most common political debate of them all) is how big it needs to be. Obviously "reducing the size of government as much as is possible", taken literally, would mean no government at all, since no government at all is obviously possible.
The second is to revoke all corporate charters and have only non-profit corporations with 10 year maximum charters.
You do have a bit of a thing about the evils of corporations (with the exception of Amazon, it seems) don't you? So where exactly to do you draw the line between a corporation and any other business? Is it a function of the number of employees? Annual profits?
The third is to use real money.
As opposed to what? Fiat currencies? Cryptocurrencies?
Again [ideally] you want just enough government to protect individual liberty and private property. Anything more always turns into tyranny.
Approximately the Libertarian position. Obviously I disagree. Since most countries (including those in which we both live, the US and the UK) have governments that do more than just protect individual liberty and private property, but also provide additional publicly funded services, when are you expecting our respective countries to turn into tyrannies? How is that going to work, in your view?
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

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impermanence wrote: January 6th, 2021, 1:30 pm You want to be everybody's mom and dad? There are innocent causalities EVERYWHERE. Look at the insanity that governments unleash all over the world. And how about what corporations do? A lot of parents are incredibly irresponsible but does it just stop with eating? How about the ones that allow their children to become phone-zombies and every other dys-functional things that people do.

Are you going to fix everything that everybody does wrong or are you going to allow people the space to try to figure it out for themselves? This is the debate and unfortunately it is the people that think they know better that create the worst f******* hell-holes on this planet.

Freedom is the best way to go about anything [but you have to take the bad with the good].
*sigh*
It would help for the purposes of discussion if you wouldn't jump to conclusions so much; if you wouldn't project onto people things they don't believe; if you wouldn't present things in terms of black-and-white dilemmas. It would really help.
*sigh*
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Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by impermanence »

Greta wrote: January 6th, 2021, 3:42 pm
[A concerned chimp says to another] Humans are malignant. The power they hold destroys other chimps and the laws to which chimps abide. They control us chimps with their fascist system.

Many chimps think humans are interesting because they have cool technology, but this matters not. The secret to being content is to be ok wherever you happen to be, to just peel another banana and forget all this progress stuff.

A chimp attempting to compete with a human tribe would be like that same chimp attempting to do battle with a hundred chimps. This is why there should be no such thing as humans.
You are comparing two different species to one individual v. say, Microsoft or Amazon?
Same game, new time, new stage. Speed of technological change is not only important, but critical to a nation's survival.

If, say, the US banned corporations then their progress would slow enormously. Xi and the CCP would not only be able to plan a US takeover, they would be spoiled for choice as to how to do it.

Humans have always banded into ever larger groups to gain an advantage (as you say, one vs thousands). That is what religion is too - a group that separates itself from the many, banding together for a competitive advantage that has allowed them to strongly influence, and at times completely control, public policy. So the British Bubble Act of the 1700s was, in fact, disingenuous because the banning of independent organisations did not include religions.
In order for an efficient economic system to be in place, it is critical to have competition. The larger and more powerful corporations become, the less competition there is [not to mention that they are in a position to dis-proportionally influence government which insures even more disparity].

Greta, the only real thing you can hope for in human society is the opportunity to make your way in life. This does not happen when the few believe they know the way and use their wealth and power to make sure everybody else "understands." This is tyranny.
So, sure, in a way corporations and other huge organisations, eg. CCP, political parties, religions are awful, certainly not good news for any unaligned individuals. But they are the future. As above, I expect that chimps thought humans were pretty awful too as they took over their lands with, to the chimps, would have been akin to a fascist system.
Corporations are not a natural occurrence. They are a legal entity conjured up by those who want to tip the playing field in their favor. If you have no problem with corporations, why not just have one bank and one store and one everything. Just be done with it.

Btw, Xi and the CCP are a bunch of morons. China is a complete mess.
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