Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Chat about anything your heart desires here, just be civil. Factual or scientific questions about philosophy go here (e.g. "When was Socrates born?"), and so most homework help questions belong here. Note, posts in the off-topic section will not increase new members post counts. This includes the introductions and feedback sections.
Post Reply
impermanence
Posts: 165
Joined: December 5th, 2020, 11:45 am

Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by impermanence »

If the previous century taught anything, it aptly demonstrated that The Left indeed destroys everything it touches. In just two countries, the USSR and Communist China, more atrocities took place than was thought possible [although not to outdone by the Hitler and his national socialist utopia on the Right].

Although billions of words will be written over the next centuries attempting to do an accurate postmortem on how the idealism of Marx, Engels, and other progressives of the 19th century morphed into murder and mayhem so over the top that people still have difficulty wrapping their heads around human depravity on this scale.

I would be interested in hearing from those who believe that both the USSR and China are an anomaly and that socialism/communism is still a practical governmental choice, and, as well, from those who might have theories on why The Left [in particular] seems to go to the absolute extremes in its pursuit of an ideal society through unrelenting intolerance and massive brutality.
User avatar
James Shadow
New Trial Member
Posts: 3
Joined: November 17th, 2020, 2:32 pm

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by James Shadow »

impermanence wrote: December 22nd, 2020, 12:08 am If the previous century taught anything, it aptly demonstrated that The Left indeed destroys everything it touches. In just two countries, the USSR and Communist China, more atrocities took place than was thought possible [although not to outdone by the Hitler and his national socialist utopia on the Right].

Although billions of words will be written over the next centuries attempting to do an accurate postmortem on how the idealism of Marx, Engels, and other progressives of the 19th century morphed into murder and mayhem so over the top that people still have difficulty wrapping their heads around human depravity on this scale.

I would be interested in hearing from those who believe that both the USSR and China are an anomaly and that socialism/communism is still a practical governmental choice, and, as well, from those who might have theories on why The Left [in particular] seems to go to the absolute extremes in its pursuit of an ideal society through unrelenting intolerance and massive brutality.
I am probably amongst the few who will actually admit to **some*** Marxist-Leninist sympathies, but it is really a question of degrees. Despite being active online in left-wing communities since the 2008 financial crisis, there is basically little or no indication of any substantial improvement in the situation for the far left, especially for Soviet-style Communism. There has been some marginal growth in the popularity of Communism, but it has been radically at the expense of the quality of the members and output.

There has been growing support for left-wing populist movements, such as Bernie Sanders campaigns in 2016 and 2020, but Sanders is more like a boy-band revival concert with a national tour than an actual revolutionary. True, he was politically active back in the 1980's, was sympathetic to a Trotskyist Party, and has defended a variety of "anti-imperialist" and "socialist" regimes, but he is really not a substantive political thinker capable of innovating or reviving socialism. At best he is a populariser who has hold the idea of democratic socialism to a new generation that has been persistently disgruntled by limited oppurtunities, frustrated ambitions in the wake of the 2008 financial crash. There is anger and frustration, but it hasn't turned in to a wider acceptance of Marxism-Leninism, even amongst those sympathetic to communism.

To be clear, virtually no-one amongst "the left" today actually supports either the USSR or China. Even those who do certainly won't be publicly seen to do so because the association is so awful. The trend has been decisively against the Marxist-Leninist model since at least 1956, when Khrushchev denounced Stalin in the secret speech and the Warsaw Pact countries intervened to suppress the uprising in Hungry. The rise of the "New Left" and the Prague Spring in 1968 accelerated the move, with French, Spanish and Italian Communist parties experimenting with "Euro-communism" as an attempt to formulate a model of communism more appropriate to western Europe. In practice, this largely set the stage for distancing themselves from the ideology, dissolving entire parties or switching to social-democratic positions.

The "collapse of communism" in Eastern Europe and the former USSR wasn't an isolated event but had a knock on effect on the international communist movement. It would be fair to call it an "extinction-level-event" for the far left, which all but wiped out only the most hard-line defenders of the Marxist-Leninist position aka. the "Anti-Revisionists" who are followers of Stalin, Mao, Hoxka, etc. As far as I am aware, these groups follow the pattern of denying that any atrocities took place and that they were invented and exaggerated by Fascist and Imperialist propaganda.

The future of Marxism-Leninism in Europe and America will probably be decided within the next two decades, as what remains of the generation of student radicals from the 60's and 70's, finally dies and leaves the younger generation to their own devices.

Unless this trend is reversed, people simply won't be able to articulate a Marxist-Leninist position because neither the books, thinkers, leaders or parties will actually survive or sustain themselves. Most of the books I've used to learn it are fairly rare English translations dating from anywhere between the 1950s and 1980s. So unless I'm very much mistaken, I think your question is mute.
impermanence
Posts: 165
Joined: December 5th, 2020, 11:45 am

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by impermanence »

James Shadow wrote: December 23rd, 2020, 2:47 pm The future of Marxism-Leninism in Europe and America will probably be decided within the next two decades, as what remains of the generation of student radicals from the 60's and 70's, finally dies and leaves the younger generation to their own devices.

Unless this trend is reversed, people simply won't be able to articulate a Marxist-Leninist position because neither the books, thinkers, leaders or parties will actually survive or sustain themselves. Most of the books I've used to learn it are fairly rare English translations dating from anywhere between the 1950s and 1980s. So unless I'm very much mistaken, I think your question is mute.
Welcome, James, and thank you for your response.

I would agree that whereas the main trunk of M-L ism has probably be relegated to the green waste-bin of history, its buds still seem viable. The fact that many people appear to favor a top-down approach to governance seems undeniable in light of the popularity of socialist/left-leaning political movements in the West. Most of this appears to be born out of ignorance as the ongoing campaign to revert the average citizen back to moron-status continues unabated.

Although capitalism certainly has its issues/contradictions, properly regulated, it is a system that can continue to raise the standard of living on this planet to inconceivable heights. As a matter of fact, it is the only system that actually works. As you well understand, socialism is simply a redistribution scheme and communism a complete fantasy [Communism better referred to as State-Capitalism].

I see the real support of top-down governance coming from the corporate sector that must have a very strong central government to apply their "elixirs" to society. Corporatism seemed an inevitable evolutionary step that the globalists had to embrace in order to continue their growth, because whereas Marx was a really inept political theoretician, few doubt the genius of his economic work. It appears as if he might just have the last laugh after all.

It would be nice if it would only be another twenty years until you will be rid of people from my generation that got it so very wrong, but I fear that tyrants of all stripes will use whatever weapons make themselves available to capture as much labor-value as is possible from each individual as has been the case from the beginning...as long as we humans plod this Earth.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by LuckyR »

The debate in the West isn't Capitalism vs Socialism. It is Capitalism with low, moderate or high levels of a Social safety net.
"As usual... it depends."
impermanence
Posts: 165
Joined: December 5th, 2020, 11:45 am

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by impermanence »

LuckyR wrote: December 24th, 2020, 2:24 am The debate in the West isn't Capitalism vs Socialism. It is Capitalism with low, moderate or high levels of a Social safety net.
Isn't a "social safety net" what socialism is designed to provide?
User avatar
James Shadow
New Trial Member
Posts: 3
Joined: November 17th, 2020, 2:32 pm

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by James Shadow »

impermanence wrote: December 23rd, 2020, 8:08 pm Welcome, James, and thank you for your response.
Thanks, it is nice to be here. I hope you are enjoying the site too. :D
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by LuckyR »

impermanence wrote: December 24th, 2020, 1:46 pm
LuckyR wrote: December 24th, 2020, 2:24 am The debate in the West isn't Capitalism vs Socialism. It is Capitalism with low, moderate or high levels of a Social safety net.
Isn't a "social safety net" what socialism is designed to provide?
Absolutely. However, Western "Capitalism" has elements of Socialism within it's structure, it isn't pure Capitalism (thank god).
"As usual... it depends."
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by baker »

impermanence wrote: December 22nd, 2020, 12:08 amIf the previous century taught anything, it aptly demonstrated that The Left indeed destroys everything it touches. In just two countries, the USSR and Communist China, more atrocities took place than was thought possible [although not to outdone by the Hitler and his national socialist utopia on the Right]. /.../
So "the Left" does horrible things in the name of bringing about an ideal society, and "the Right" does the same thing (in a more sophisticated and implicit way) in the name of profit and justifying the struggle for survival.

No slavery is as absolute as the one that gives the impression of freedom.
impermanence
Posts: 165
Joined: December 5th, 2020, 11:45 am

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by impermanence »

LuckyR wrote: December 25th, 2020, 4:05 am
impermanence wrote: December 24th, 2020, 1:46 pm
Isn't a "social safety net" what socialism is designed to provide?
Absolutely. However, Western "Capitalism" has elements of Socialism within it's structure, it isn't pure Capitalism (thank god).
Yes, it has a great deal of socialism incorporated. This is the main problem with our socio-economic system [both from a social safety net perspective and a corporate welfare one]. The bigger the government, the more corruption.

Eliminate 90% of government, make all corporations non-profit with ten year revoke-able charters, eliminate nearly all taxes and allow people to be creative once again. Don't want to be productive, don't eat. It's time shake off this entitlement mentality and get back to work. The party is over.
User avatar
Robert66
Posts: 521
Joined: April 20th, 2014, 5:13 pm

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by Robert66 »

Some of your statements, impermanence, suggest that you have been guzzling way too much Kool-Aid.
impermanence wrote: December 25th, 2020, 1:04 pm
Eliminate 90% of government, make all corporations non-profit with ten year revoke-able charters, eliminate nearly all taxes and allow people to be creative once again.
Where did you get that idea? More importantly, explain in detail how this would actually work - specifically the 'make all corporations non-profit' part. And how would you respond to the criticism that The Right (to adopt the monolithic language used here) have already succeeded in removing as much of government as they could, during a period (past 40-50 years) when citizens have increasingly called on governments to remedy the ills of poorly regulated capitalism, and the most shrunken governments are now the least equipped to deal with societal problems let alone crises such as CoVid19?
impermanence wrote: December 25th, 2020, 1:04 pm
Isn't a "social safety net" what socialism is designed to provide?
Do you think capitalist societies should provide no social security? (I know that this term has been replaced by "welfare" however provisions such as unemployment benefits and government-subsidised healthcare and education are in fact designed to ensure social security)
impermanence wrote: December 25th, 2020, 1:04 pm Don't want to be productive, don't eat. It's time shake off this entitlement mentality and get back to work. The party is over.
Tell us how the unproductive (eg people with disabilities or mental illness) will fare in your scheme. I expect the efficient corporate world will find solutions to these problematic people. Perhaps gas chambers as the most cost-effective way of eliminating them?
impermanence wrote: December 25th, 2020, 1:04 pm The bigger the government, the more corruption.
Is that a fact?
impermanence
Posts: 165
Joined: December 5th, 2020, 11:45 am

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by impermanence »

Robert66 wrote: December 26th, 2020, 3:41 pm Some of your statements, impermanence, suggest that you have been guzzling way too much Kool-Aid.
impermanence wrote: December 25th, 2020, 1:04 pm
Eliminate 90% of government, make all corporations non-profit with ten year revoke-able charters, eliminate nearly all taxes and allow people to be creative once again.
Where did you get that idea? More importantly, explain in detail how this would actually work - specifically the 'make all corporations non-profit' part. And how would you respond to the criticism that The Right (to adopt the monolithic language used here) have already succeeded in removing as much of government as they could, during a period (past 40-50 years) when citizens have increasingly called on governments to remedy the ills of poorly regulated capitalism, and the most shrunken governments are now the least equipped to deal with societal problems let alone crises such as CoVid19?
"explain in detail..." You must be a teacher.

Well, let me distill it down to the following. As you might ascertain, I am not a big fan of groups. Attenuate the power of as many as possible [particularly the most virulent ones, i.e., governments and corporations] in order to re-empower the individual.
impermanence wrote: December 25th, 2020, 1:04 pm
Isn't a "social safety net" what socialism is designed to provide?
Do you think capitalist societies should provide no social security? (I know that this term has been replaced by "welfare" however provisions such as unemployment benefits and government-subsidized healthcare and education are in fact designed to ensure social security)
Governments should only provide physical security and the protection of private property. Once they get involved in other things, all hell breaks loose. Health care is a perfect example. The U.S. went from having [arguably] the best health care system in the world to one which is a complete mess [under the tutelage of the government/corporate cabal].
impermanence wrote: December 25th, 2020, 1:04 pm Don't want to be productive, don't eat. It's time shake off this entitlement mentality and get back to work. The party is over.

Tell us how the unproductive (eg people with disabilities or mental illness) will fare in your scheme. I expect the efficient corporate world will find solutions to these problematic people. Perhaps gas chambers as the most cost-effective way of eliminating them?
People who are truly disabled can be taken care of by private charities.
impermanence wrote: December 25th, 2020, 1:04 pm The bigger the government, the more corruption.
Is that a fact?
I am not sure that anybody [except those who work in government] would disagree with the idea the larger the government, the more corruption.
User avatar
Robert66
Posts: 521
Joined: April 20th, 2014, 5:13 pm

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by Robert66 »

Ok so you have no explanations for any of your ludicrous assumptions and statements. Good luck with your right wing utopia.
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by Count Lucanor »

impermanence wrote: December 22nd, 2020, 12:08 am If the previous century taught anything, it aptly demonstrated that The Left indeed destroys everything it touches.
And what exactly is "the left"? Was it the reformers against child labor in the 19th century? Was it the women's rights movement? Was it the civil rights movement in the USA? Was it the anti-colonialist struggles in several countries? Was it the eight-hour working day movement during the industrial revolution? Was it the so called Roosevelt's socialist New Deal? Was it Social Democracy and the welfare state in Europe? Is it the publicly-funded National Health Service (NHS) in the UK?
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
impermanence
Posts: 165
Joined: December 5th, 2020, 11:45 am

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by impermanence »

Count Lucanor wrote: December 26th, 2020, 9:46 pm
impermanence wrote: December 22nd, 2020, 12:08 am If the previous century taught anything, it aptly demonstrated that The Left indeed destroys everything it touches.
And what exactly is "the left"? Was it the reformers against child labor in the 19th century? Was it the women's rights movement? Was it the civil rights movement in the USA? Was it the anti-colonialist struggles in several countries? Was it the eight-hour working day movement during the industrial revolution? Was it the so called Roosevelt's socialist New Deal? Was it Social Democracy and the welfare state in Europe? Is it the publicly-funded National Health Service (NHS) in the UK?
When the left takes power, things get ugly. Their policies just don't work. Redistribution is NOT the answer. Supporting policies that allow for the most opportunity for the most people is what works. Encouraging and rewarding hard work is what works. Individual freedom works.

At times, the left supports worthy causes and unjust policies but the way they do it almost always undermines their good intentions. They alienate a great percentage of the people with their immature bully tactics.

Look at what happened over the summer. There will be all kinds of repercussions [for decades to come] from the bizarre stuff that went down.
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Why Does The Left Destroy Everything It Touches?

Post by Count Lucanor »

impermanence wrote: December 26th, 2020, 10:25 pm When the left takes power, things get ugly. Their policies just don't work.
You mean like Barack Obama, Roosevelt and Keynesian policies? Francois Mitterrand? Michelle Bachelet? Olof Palme? The famous Jacinda K. Ardern? Rafael Correa? Evo Morales? Tabaré Vázquez? Jose Mujica? These are or were considered leaders of left wing policies and they did fairly well. Most of them were reelected.

How about the communists in China? It would be interesting to see that their policies are not working since just today the projection came out that in less than a decade China's economy will surpass USA's.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophers' Lounge”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021