What does it mean to be coherent?

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Steve3007
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What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by Steve3007 »

There is a wide range of writing styles in this forum, both between different posters and sometimes between the posts of the same poster. Is it fair to say that some are more coherent than others? Most of us probably have an innate sense of when another poster is saying something that we can get a handle on and when they're talking what appears to us to be meaning-free gibberish, or just confused and badly formed sentences. We can probably tell if a post is telling us something, reasonably unambiguously, about the poster's worldview. But can we spell out the criteria that we use for this? In doing that, would it be possible to propose a sort of algorithm, or recipe, that other posters could follow if they wanted to say something that we would consider coherent?

One example of the way that poor writing style can develop is the first sentence in this OP. It originally said just this:

"There is a wide range of writing styles in this forum."

Simple. But I decided to "clarify" it by qualifying it (adding the part after the comma). That probably isn't generally a good idea. Adding qualifications to a sentence with the aim of making it say something more precise often comes at the cost of making it longer and less readable. Sometimes, after writing something and reading it back, we have to resist the temptation to think that it's not specific enough or is too open to interpretation. Brevity is often preferable to broad scope.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Coherence:

(a) whether something makes semantic sense as opposed to just being gibberish (which can be either because the thoughts behind it were muddled or because it was expressed poorly),

and

(b) whether something make logical and/or metaphysical sense versus forwarding or entailing logical contradictions, category errors and the like.

Would there be a way to summarize all of the conditions for this via some algorithm? No, not really, since it covers such a wide range of things, and it would be impossible to come up with a comprehensive list of possibilities.
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LuckyR
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by LuckyR »

When I get responses to my posts that don't address my point, I commonly feel it is because my point is well made, thus it is easier to counter by addressing something other than what I wrote. However other options could be that I was confusing, or that a reader got bored by my comments and didn't read them through.

We often choose the option that is easiest on our egos.
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by Steve3007 »

LuckyR wrote:When I get responses to my posts that don't address my point, I commonly feel it is because my point is well made, thus it is easier to counter by addressing something other than what I wrote. However other options could be that I was confusing, or that a reader got bored by my comments and didn't read them through.

We often choose the option that is easiest on our egos.
Yes. I often think it would be useful to have things like a thumbs-up feature, as in MS Teams for example. I use Teams a lot to communicate work-related stuff and sticking a quick thumbs-up tag on a post is a good way to indicate that it's been read and not objected to, without cluttering things up with posts that simply say "I agree" or "acknowledged". The fact that the workings of this particular site make it very easy to quote an entire post and then write one line underneath really adds to that clutter in my view.

I setup an alternative site a while ago (near the start of this year when this one was down for a while):

https://philotalk.com/

but haven't yet developed it at all and might never have time! If I had time, I'd try to add features to it that I think would help. Another desirable feature, in my view, would be the ability to quickly and easily add hand-drawn sketches into the middle of posts.
Fellowmater
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by Fellowmater »

If someone is coherent, they express their thoughts in a clear and calm way, so that other people can understand what they are saying.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Fellowmater wrote: May 14th, 2021, 4:23 pm If someone is coherent, they express their thoughts in a clear and calm way, so that other people can understand what they are saying.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Steve3007 wrote: May 12th, 2021, 5:39 am There is a wide range of writing styles in this forum, both between different posters and sometimes between the posts of the same poster. Is it fair to say that some are more coherent than others?

Yes, I think it's fair. Here is a brief excerpt from the coding standard I wrote for my final employer.
I wrote:Aim
The aim of these coding guidelines is to encourage the production of source code which is easy to read and understand, i.e. clarity. Consistency is considered a prime contributor to clarity, and may be seen as a secondary aim.

The primary guideline is: The aim of this document takes precedence over its guidelines.

Significant deviations from these guidelines should be documented, and approved by a code review. The normal justification for a deviation is clarity.

Guidelines
...

Steve3007 wrote: May 12th, 2021, 5:39 am But can we spell out the criteria that we use for this? In doing that, would it be possible to propose a sort of algorithm, or recipe, that other posters could follow if they wanted to say something that we would consider coherent?
There are many writing-style guides that offer advice. Here are a couple of classics:

The Elements of style by William Strunk, Jr.
The King’s English by H.W. Fowler

The crux of this topic is that there's a big difference between knowing how to write clear text and doing it. I have been interested in clear writing for long enough that I can claim some (limited) expertise, but this has not made me a talented exponent of the art!
  • Clear writing requires a little talent, and a lot of practice.
  • Don't they say we must practice a skill for 10,000 hours to become truly competent?
  • Alternatively, your first million words are practice.

What does it mean to be coherent? A simple 'equation':

Coherence = Clarity + Simplicity + Brevity
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Steve3007
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by Steve3007 »

Pattern-chaser wrote:Coherence = Clarity + Simplicity + Brevity
Sometimes clarity gets into a fight with simplicity and brevity, and everybody loses.

That is, sometimes it's tempting to try to clarify what one is saying by adding explanations or examples (for example by putting them in brackets. 1) so as to try to head off possible objections that are based on misunderstandings of what one was trying to say. It's a particular issue in environments like this one where (unlike a face-to-face conversation) you don't get immediate feedback. It's hard to resist that temptation and just to say something short and then wait, maybe several days, maybe forever, for the reply that allows you to give the clarification that would have come a few seconds later in a face-to-face discussion.

So, in this post, arguably, I should have left it at that first (what I'd like to think of as pithy) sentence and waited for you to say "Really? How so?".


1Or maybe even by adding them as numbered footnotes.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

LuckyR wrote: May 13th, 2021, 2:54 am When I get responses to my posts that don't address my point, I commonly feel it is because my point is well made, thus it is easier to counter by addressing something other than what I wrote. However other options could be that I was confusing, or that a reader got bored by my comments and didn't read them through.

We often choose the option that is easiest on our egos.
When I get responses to my posts that don't address my point, I commonly feel it is because my point is not well made...
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LuckyR
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 18th, 2021, 6:25 am
LuckyR wrote: May 13th, 2021, 2:54 am When I get responses to my posts that don't address my point, I commonly feel it is because my point is well made, thus it is easier to counter by addressing something other than what I wrote. However other options could be that I was confusing, or that a reader got bored by my comments and didn't read them through.

We often choose the option that is easiest on our egos.
When I get responses to my posts that don't address my point, I commonly feel it is because my point is not well made...
Thus the effect of an over abundance and a lack of confidence. The truth, as usual probably lies somewhere in between.
"As usual... it depends."
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Steve3007 wrote: May 18th, 2021, 6:16 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:Coherence = Clarity + Simplicity + Brevity
Sometimes clarity gets into a fight with simplicity and brevity, and everybody loses.
I'm sorry. In my head, I responded to this soon after you wrote it. Reality turns out to be different. <blush>

Yes, you're right. Achieving clarity, simplicity and brevity simultaneously is quite a skill. But then, clear writing is very demanding. If it wasn't we'd be swamped in amazing text, and this topic wouldn't even have been thought of.

I started off by saying you're right, but it is also the case that you're quite wrong. It is not necessary for clarity to clash with the other two, although I acknowledge it can happen. All of them contribute directly to coherence, so all of them can be arranged to push in the same direction. That's the challenge of writing clearly.

Finally, I cannot accept that "everybody loses" when an attempt at clear writing falls short of perfection. I think all efforts aimed at coherence leave the writing better than it otherwise would have been.
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Robert66
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by Robert66 »

My inner contrarian must object to all this nonsense. There is something far more important than coherence, and if you would like to know what I consider that something to be - if, I mean, you are truly interested, and not just scrolling through the endless dross searching for a morsel to sustain you, perhaps a little anecdotal tidbit which resonates with your (already fully-formed, robust) world view; something, indeed, to brighten another weary day - then I would urge you to keep reading this admittedly long and winding sentence, for as sure as night follows day, the answer will be revealed (though I suspect you have already a sense - the merest inkling, perhaps, or maybe an unshakeable conviction - of what that answer will be) when I tell you that that 'something' is meaning.

'Adding qualifications to a sentence with the aim of making it say something more precise often comes at the cost of making it longer and less readable.'

This may be true, however it is also true that the part which follows the comma often provides most of what is interesting in the writing. We start our reading adventure with simple sentences such as "the cat sat on the mat" but thankfully we move on from there. I have just finished a very enjoyable novel - Solar Bones by Mike McCormack - which contains no full stops. Just one long, irrestistible flow, coherent over hundreds of pages.

Exhibit A: Bob Dylan. Coherent, clear? Not at all.
Exhibit B: 99% of popular music. Coherent, clear? Definitely. Not hard to understand "I wanna get (back) into your pants".

I also recommend one of my all-time favourite novels, The Third Policeman by Flann O'Brien - a novel with lengthy footnotes! Imagine that.
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Robert66
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by Robert66 »

I should have added a clause or two about The Third Policeman. It manages to be absurd, almost impenetrable, and absolutely hilarious in equal measure. The footnotes add another layer of hilarity. It is an incoherent masterpiece.
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Robert66 wrote: May 23rd, 2021, 5:18 pm My inner contrarian must object to all this nonsense. There is something far more important than coherence [...] meaning.
The transmission of meaning is difficult enough as it is. Coherent text, as discussed here, aids in the accurate transmission of meaning. Coherence describes the transport mechanism; the meaning is what is being transported.
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Steve3007
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Re: What does it mean to be coherent?

Post by Steve3007 »

Pattern-chaser wrote:I'm sorry. In my head, I responded to this soon after you wrote it. Reality turns out to be different. <blush>
No problem. Happens to me a lot too.
Yes, you're right. Achieving clarity, simplicity and brevity simultaneously is quite a skill. But then, clear writing is very demanding. If it wasn't we'd be swamped in amazing text, and this topic wouldn't even have been thought of.

I started off by saying you're right, but it is also the case that you're quite wrong. It is not necessary for clarity to clash with the other two, although I acknowledge it can happen. All of them contribute directly to coherence, so all of them can be arranged to push in the same direction. That's the challenge of writing clearly.
True. It is not necessary for them to clash. It just sometimes happens.
Finally, I cannot accept that "everybody loses" when an attempt at clear writing falls short of perfection. I think all efforts aimed at coherence leave the writing better than it otherwise would have been.
Fair point. Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Or so they say.
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