The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Chat about anything your heart desires here, just be civil. Factual or scientific questions about philosophy go here (e.g. "When was Socrates born?"), and so most homework help questions belong here. Note, posts in the off-topic section will not increase new members post counts. This includes the introductions and feedback sections.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by RJG »

The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

***************
Here are the simple SCIENTIFIC facts (premise statements):

P1. Vaccinations, by themselves, don't stop this virus.
P2. Vaccinations help produce "immune" people.
P3. Only herd immunity stops this virus. This virus will continue to mutate, mutation after mutation, with potentially more contagious and deadly variants, until we achieve herd immunity.
P4. If enough immune people "participate" in achieving herd immunity, then we can stop this virus.
P5. Immune people cannot stop the transmission of the virus if they are isolated from the virus. To "participate" in stopping the transmission of the virus, an immune person must non-isolate themselves. They must fully socialize, unmasked.

***************
Here are the simple LOGICAL conclusions:

C1. Therefore, vaccination + masking immune people = no herd immunity.
C2. Therefore, no herd immunity = the virus will continue to perpetuate with potentially more contagious and deadly mutations = more deaths.

***************
At some point in time, we HAVE TO commit to implementing herd immunity. Herd immunity, as any legitimate scientist/medical professional will vouch for, is the ONLY way to stop the further continuation of mutations. We can do it now, or we can wait for 10 new mutations to occur (and many more deaths) and then do it.

Our choice.
User avatar
chewybrian
Posts: 1594
Joined: May 9th, 2018, 7:17 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Epictetus
Location: Florida man

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by chewybrian »

Presenting the same arguments in a new thread 5 or 6 different times does not make the arguments any more appealing or convincing.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by RJG »

Chewy, this is different. This is more about the false belief that "vaccinations stop this virus". Vaccinations do not stop this virus. Immune people do. Vaccinations help give us immune people. And if immune people participate in achieving herd immunity, then we can stop the virus. If they don't, then we don't stop the virus. ...agreed?
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by Sculptor1 »

Vaccinations are the best way to contribute to herd immunity.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by Sculptor1 »

RG1 wrote: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

***************
Here are the simple SCIENTIFIC facts (premise statements):

P1. Vaccinations, by themselves, don't stop this virus.
Depends. This is a poor start for a logical discussion. Vaccinations by themselves prepare and protect the body from the disease the virus causes.

P2. Vaccinations help produce "immune" people.
What is "immune people"? More vauge terminology. Vaccinations stimulate the immunes system to prepare for virus infections.
P3. Only herd immunity stops this virus. This virus will continue to mutate, mutation after mutation, with potentially more contagious and deadly variants, until we achieve herd immunity.
If, as you say the virus continues to mutate then we shall never achive herd immunity.
P4. If enough immune people "participate" in achieving herd immunity, then we can stop this virus.
Maybe, maybe not. because of the vector of the disease and the infectiveness of the disease the likleyhood that we are going to ever stop this virus is highly unlikely. The viruses that cause COVID are akin to the common cold and are likley to become part of the new normal.
P5. Immune people cannot stop the transmission of the virus if they are isolated from the virus. To "participate" in stopping the transmission of the virus, an immune person must non-isolate themselves. They must fully socialize, unmasked.
No one is effectively isolated from the virus at this time. The number of new infections each day prohibit any chance of the health systems coping with the new variant/

***************
Here are the simple LOGICAL conclusions:
SInce every single one of your premises are faulty, naive, or simplistic, there are no valid conclusions to be had.

C1. Therefore, vaccination + masking immune people = no herd immunity.
It is not possible to determine who is "immune", who will get mild disease and who will die.
But statistics have shown that vaccinations prevent serious illness and assist on the raod to heard immunity, and that masking can reduce the viral load, making it easier to achieve immunity when infected, and to avoid infection all together in some cases.
Vaccination contributes to herd immunity more effectively than not having vaccinations, since vaccinated people who become infected achieve immunity with no severe illness.
C2. Therefore, no herd immunity = the virus will continue to perpetuate with potentially more contagious and deadly mutations = more deaths.
Wrong.
The new Omicron variation emerged from a population with very low vaccination rates.
The Delta came from unvaccinated people.
The best way to contribute to herd immunity is TO GET VACCINATED.

***************
At some point in time, we HAVE TO commit to implementing herd immunity.
We already are it is called a VACCINATION programme.
Herd immunity, as any legitimate scientist/medical professional will vouch for, is the ONLY way to stop the further continuation of mutations. We can do it now, or we can wait for 10 new mutations to occur (and many more deaths) and then do it.
Yes. so shut the **** up, put your needle shyness in your baby box and get yourself vaccinated.

Our choice.
Chose life!
Last edited by Sculptor1 on January 5th, 2022, 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by Sculptor1 »

RJG wrote: January 5th, 2022, 8:49 am Chewy, this is different. This is more about the false belief that "vaccinations stop this virus". Vaccinations do not stop this virus. Immune people do. Vaccinations help give us immune people. And if immune people participate in achieving herd immunity, then we can stop the virus. If they don't, then we don't stop the virus. ...agreed?
No one is saying vaccinations stop virus(whatever that means). And nothing you have presented here argues for or against that.

Vaccinations simulate immunty. You have a massive contradiction when you say " Vaccinations do not stop this virus. Immune people do."
I'm not sure why you are carrying this confusion. But if you want some help, please ask.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by RJG »

Scuptor1 wrote:You have a massive contradiction when you say " Vaccinations do not stop this virus. Immune people do."
Where's the contradiction?

1. A gives us B.
2. B who does C gives us D

1. Vaccinations (immunizations) give us "immune" people.
2. Immune people who participate in achieving herd immunity (i.e. socialize unmasked), help stop the virus.

Very straightforward.

Sculptor1 wrote:Vaccinations are the best way to contribute to herd immunity.
Okay, so then tell us how vaccinations get us herd immunity?

Answer:
1. Vaccinations (immunizations) give us "immune" people.
2. If enough immune people participate in achieving herd immunity (i.e. socialize unmasked), then this will get us herd immunity.

...agreed?
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by Sculptor1 »

RJG wrote: January 5th, 2022, 4:53 pm
Scuptor1 wrote:You have a massive contradiction when you say " Vaccinations do not stop this virus. Immune people do."
Where's the contradiction?

1. A gives us B.
2. B who does C gives us D
1. No it does not.
2. Neither does thins work.
I do not think you have bothered to read my comments.

1. Vaccinations (immunizations) give us "immune" people.
2. Immune people who participate in achieving herd immunity (i.e. socialize unmasked), help stop the virus.

Very straightforward.
Hospitals are full to bursting.
Logic is meaningless when people are alrady dying needlessly.

Sculptor1 wrote:Vaccinations are the best way to contribute to herd immunity.
Okay, so then tell us how vaccinations get us herd immunity?

Answer:
1. Vaccinations (immunizations) give us "immune" people.
2. If enough immune people participate in achieving herd immunity (i.e. socialize unmasked), then this will get us herd immunity.

...agreed?
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by Sy Borg »

Brian is right. Repetition may be effective for masses who are kept too busy to contemplate anything too deeply. However, thinkers find the technique patronising and naive, which pretty well guarantees a hostile reception. In short, it's nagging.

Sculptor1 wrote: January 5th, 2022, 6:39 pmHospitals are full to bursting.
This is the key issue, and one that anti-vaxxers routinely ignore.

Once a certain people make an ideological decision, any information that does not support their case will be ignored or undermined. The religious is famous for this but the secular alt-right and extreme PC left are similar in this regard.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by RJG »

Sculptor1 wrote:Hospitals are full to bursting.
Sy Borg wrote:This is the key issue, and one that anti-vaxxers routinely ignore.
Both these comments are "red-herrings" and totally irrelevant to anything I've said.

Sculpt, what does "Hospitals are full to bursting" have anything to do with telling me how we get herd immunity?

And Sy, are you somehow falsely implying that I am an "anti-vaxxer"? ...if so, how did you get that impression from me saying we need vaccinations to get immune people to participate in achieving herd immunity???

Come on guys. Attack my actual words, not your strawman's.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by Sy Borg »

RJG wrote: January 5th, 2022, 7:54 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:Hospitals are full to bursting.
Sy Borg wrote:This is the key issue, and one that anti-vaxxers routinely ignore.
Both these comments are "red-herrings" and totally irrelevant to anything I've said.

Sculpt, what does "Hospitals are full to bursting" have anything to do with telling me how we get herd immunity?

And Sy, are you somehow falsely implying that I am an "anti-vaxxer"? ...if so, how did you get that impression from me saying we need vaccinations to get immune people to participate in achieving herd immunity???

Come on guys. Attack my actual words, not your strawman's.
I note that you dodged the key issue by instead focusing on rules of engagement. Point taken on anti-vaxxer, so I'll retract that one. Now you can return the compliment by acknowledging that vaccination rules have been made to protect the health system, especially ICUs.

If a cheap and easy technology existed to quickly assess the antibodies of a person, then the issue of vaccination would be moot. People would then be discriminated against based on antibody status rather than vaccination status, which is more logical.

However, just as all dogs are required to be leashed on the street, even though most would cause zero problems, all people are required to be vaccinated to access certain venues. It's not fair, sure, but it's the "shorthand" that governments use in lieu of adequate administration or technology.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by LuckyR »

RJG wrote: January 5th, 2022, 8:27 am The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

***************
Here are the simple SCIENTIFIC facts (premise statements):

P1. Vaccinations, by themselves, don't stop this virus.
P2. Vaccinations help produce "immune" people.
P3. Only herd immunity stops this virus. This virus will continue to mutate, mutation after mutation, with potentially more contagious and deadly variants, until we achieve herd immunity.
P4. If enough immune people "participate" in achieving herd immunity, then we can stop this virus.
P5. Immune people cannot stop the transmission of the virus if they are isolated from the virus. To "participate" in stopping the transmission of the virus, an immune person must non-isolate themselves. They must fully socialize, unmasked.

***************
Here are the simple LOGICAL conclusions:

C1. Therefore, vaccination + masking immune people = no herd immunity.
C2. Therefore, no herd immunity = the virus will continue to perpetuate with potentially more contagious and deadly mutations = more deaths.

***************
At some point in time, we HAVE TO commit to implementing herd immunity. Herd immunity, as any legitimate scientist/medical professional will vouch for, is the ONLY way to stop the further continuation of mutations. We can do it now, or we can wait for 10 new mutations to occur (and many more deaths) and then do it.

Our choice.
Among the numerous errors contained within this post, probably the most important is the idea that the Covid virus will be "stopped". It is almost certainly going to become endemic, just like the flu virus, which similarly was not "stopped" by the many decades of flu vaccinated people not quaratined nor wearing masks.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by RJG »

Sy Borg wrote:Now you can return the compliment by acknowledging that vaccination rules have been made to protect the health system, especially ICUs.

If a cheap and easy technology existed to quickly assess the antibodies of a person, then the issue of vaccination would be moot. People would then be discriminated against based on antibody status rather than vaccination status, which is more logical.

However, just as all dogs are required to be leashed on the street, even though most would cause zero problems, all people are required to be vaccinated to access certain venues. It's not fair, sure, but it's the "shorthand" that governments use in lieu of adequate administration or technology.
Sy, what does any of this have to do with my topic? This seems to be an off-topic (unrelated) discussion.

The point of my topic is that we can't reach herd immunity without the participation of immune people. - Vaccinations help give us immune people. And immune people that participate in herd immunity help us achieve herd immunity.

LuckyR wrote:…probably the most important is the idea that the Covid virus will be "stopped". It is almost certainly going to become endemic, just like the flu virus, which similarly was not "stopped" by the many decades of flu vaccinated people not quaratined nor wearing masks.
According to Dr. Fauci, covid will certainly continue and become worse if we don't try to reach herd immunity. The protective effect of herd immunity is an undeniable scientific fact (as well as being an irrefutable logical/mathematical truth).

The point of my post is that not only do we need more vaccinations (as per Fauci) to help get us enough immune people, but we also need these immune people to also "participate" in achieving herd immunity. Vaccinations without participation will not get us herd immunity!
User avatar
JackDaydream
Posts: 3218
Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by JackDaydream »

@RJG
I am not against vaccines or masks but do think that it sometimes gives a false sense of security to people who have followed these guidelines. Some people seem to think that if they have been vaccinated or wear a mask that they cannot get Covid. I am fed up with telling a few people who I know that they are not protected through wearing a mask. Other people seem to refuse to believe that vaccines have any importance. Sometimes, there seems to be a lack of balanced thinking.

Part of the problem may be that so much is unknown. It is hard to be sure how many variants may yet be on the horizon. In England there is already talk of starting a fourth vaccine and it does lead me to wonder how on earth many are going to follow. There is some hope that Omicron has reached its peak but how long will it be before another variant comes along. It could go on for years potentially but I am prepared to be vaccinated but do struggle so much with masks because they steam up my glasses and I have knocked items over in shops as a result.

The point where herd immunity is achieved is going to be difficult if the virus keeps mutating. It is like how superbugs seem to occur in the most cleanest environments like hospitals. Fighting the virus is like a war against evil, with Covid being the new enemy, almost taking over from the fight against terrorism
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: The Simple Science (and Logic) of Covid

Post by Sy Borg »

RJG wrote: January 6th, 2022, 7:49 am
Sy Borg wrote:Now you can return the compliment by acknowledging that vaccination rules have been made to protect the health system, especially ICUs.

If a cheap and easy technology existed to quickly assess the antibodies of a person, then the issue of vaccination would be moot. People would then be discriminated against based on antibody status rather than vaccination status, which is more logical.

However, just as all dogs are required to be leashed on the street, even though most would cause zero problems, all people are required to be vaccinated to access certain venues. It's not fair, sure, but it's the "shorthand" that governments use in lieu of adequate administration or technology.
Sy, what does any of this have to do with my topic? This seems to be an off-topic (unrelated) discussion.

The point of my topic is that we can't reach herd immunity without the participation of immune people. - Vaccinations help give us immune people. And immune people that participate in herd immunity help us achieve herd immunity.
Once again, you avoid the issue. The primary limit on herd immunity is the overloading of ICUs and the hospital system generally. That is the cause of your months of repetitive bellyaching about COVID responses.

You rail about masks while refusing to face the reason for the mandates.

Your first conclusion, oddly named "C1" as though it was part of a logical exercise - which it is not - is dicey at first glance. How can an American think for even a moment that all of the population will obey COVID rules? Maybe by being in a coma for the last decade or so? Whatever germs you have WILL spread because the US populace lacks the collective character to pull together for the greater good, eg. reducing case loads so that ICUs are not overwhelmed.

Your second conclusion - grandly titled C2, no less - is simply wrong. The answer lies in the reason why seasonal colds and flus don't mutate into lethal strains each year, causing pandemics every season. Can you guess it?

Again, it's pointless to rail about masks if one does not take strain on the health system seriously.

Oh, and if we are going to treat the key issue as off-topic, I note that this thread has nothing to do with the Philosophy of Science; it is single issue activism and the thread will be moved to an appropriate place on the forum.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophers' Lounge”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021