What is a reasonable view of Transsexuality?

[Stoppelmann]

The president of USPATH, who is trans, says she’s concerned we might be transitioning gay kids. And GIDS gender clinicians compared GIDS practices to “conversion therapy for gay children”.

[Belindi]

The president of USPATH, who is trans, says she’s concerned we might be transitioning gay kids. And GIDS gender clinicians compared GIDS practices to “conversion therapy for gay children”.

All the more reason to let kids be kids and not members of cliques and in-groups. There is no ethical reason a soul cannot be gay for a day at their own discretion.

[Gertie]

Stoppelmann

From saying you want to present both sides and be be reasonable, you've ended up presenting only one side and posting any old unlinked quote to back up the TERF position. I don't doubt your sincerity or that you're well meaning, but that's propagandising, and I'm no longer interested in engaging.

I really don't want to get into tit for tat over anecdotes and 'headline stories' because each side can score points that way as I'm sure you know, and they need tedious fact checking and context. I did try to check up your unlinked post here -

Alicyn Simpson, who works at the UPMC Children’s Hospital Gender program, describes the possibilty of uterine transplants from LIVE DONORS being given to men who are trying to become women. “Most transgender women would choose to have female physiological experiences.”
Just which healthy young women are going be targeted to be “live donors”?

I finally found a tweet containing the quote and a video, where Simpson says it's worth considering in a situation where a FTM trans person choosing to have her uterus removed could donate it to a MTF trans person who would love to have it, rather than it being chucked in the bin. 

Knowing the context, which I assume you did, makes your comment ''Just which healthy young women are going be targeted to be “live donors”?'' look disingenuous and intended to inspire fear rather than take the 'reasonable/both sides approach you initially claimed .

It might be a genuine mistake, so I checked your claim about a higher proportion of trans prisonners being sex offenders than cis men and google gave me this article which gives several reasons why this too might be misleading. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

You rightly care about things we should be mindful of, and have made some fair points, but as I've said if we don't check our tendancy to confirmation bias, especially regarding 'the other', it's easy to convince ourselves that this time it's different to all those other movements we approve of, feel relatable or empathetic to. Nobody thinks they are vulnerable to this, but we all are, including me. I feel that empathy here, want to be charitable and give benefit of the doubt to 'my side', in a way it takes a conscious effort to do for yours, and we're not going to agree on this.

[Consul]

…the TERF position.

You shouldn't use this term of abuse to refer to gender-critical feminists!

[Consul]

Alicyn Simpson, who works at the UPMC Children’s Hospital Gender program, describes the possibilty of uterine transplants from LIVE DONORS being given to men who are trying to become women. “Most transgender women would choose to have female physiological experiences.”
Just which healthy young women are going be targeted to be “live donors”?

I finally found a tweet containing the quote and a video, where Simpson says it's worth considering in a situation where a FTM trans person choosing to have her uterus removed could donate it to a MTF trans person who would love to have it, rather than it being chucked in the bin.

This raises medical and ethical questions:

Doctor planning womb transplant to allow a transgender woman to carry children

Uterus transplants are already a reality. What does it mean for transgender women getting pregnant?

[Stoppelmann]

Stoppelmann

From saying you want to present both sides and be be reasonable, you've ended up presenting only one side and posting any old unlinked quote to back up the TERF position. I don't doubt your sincerity or that you're well meaning, but that's propagandising, and I'm no longer interested in engaging.

I think the problem is that I began on the side of trans people, and still am when it comes to people taking a reasonable position, for which there are many examples of transitioned people who have stated quite categorically that the way activists are presenting their cause is contra-productive, and doubt has grown that these activists are really representing them. Like I said, it seems as though an extreme form of post-modernism has hijacked the issue and employs anyone willing to protest against the “social construct” of sex affiliation, including confused young people who have made it their only purpose in life.

The examples I gave were headlines that showed a mixed portrayal of the issue, on the one hand an overbearing domination of women’s events by transidente males, and the acceptance in the media, like the moment transgender singer, Jordan Gray, strips naked live on Channel 4 and plays the keyboard with “her” penis on live television and says on twitter, 'tonight we make history.' And on the other side there were examples of exploitation of that acceptance, for which women and girls have had to suffer. I feel that I have tried to balance the issue, but in the momentary situation, the activists are drowning out the concerns of women, and the media and institutions are allowing it. As soon as someone sits up and says, wait a minute, they are called a bigot, right-wing, or worse. Your use of TERF, which is a derogatory terminology for people who have criticised the overwhelming acceptance, the uncritical affirmation of minors with dysphoria, and the criminalisation of people with concerns, is also a problem.

I really don't want to get into tit for tat over anecdotes and 'headline stories' because each side can score points that way as I'm sure you know, and they need tedious fact checking and context. I did try to check up your unlinked post here -

Alicyn Simpson, who works at the UPMC Children’s Hospital Gender program, describes the possibilty of uterine transplants from LIVE DONORS being given to men who are trying to become women. “Most transgender women would choose to have female physiological experiences.”
Just which healthy young women are going be targeted to be “live donors”?

I finally found a tweet containing the quote and a video, where Simpson says it's worth considering in a situation where a FTM trans person choosing to have her uterus removed could donate it to a MTF trans person who would love to have it, rather than it being chucked in the bin.

Yes, there is that aspect, but aren’t we reducing human beings to their parts by doing that? Isn’t a woman more than her uterus? The body is so complex that just swapping a few bits won’t give a male a female experience, instead, there will undoubtedly be complications, and in the end there can be no natural birth because the physiology will not allow it. It is down to surgery, and as if we haven’t already seen how grotesquely mask-like the faces of celebrities have become through surgery, it is all artificial, and the more we cut people up, the more artificial society will become.

It might be a genuine mistake, so I checked your claim about a higher proportion of trans prisonners being sex offenders than cis men and google gave me this article which gives several reasons why this too might be misleading. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

You rightly care about things we should be mindful of, and have made some fair points, but as I've said if we don't check our tendancy to confirmation bias, especially regarding 'the other', it's easy to convince ourselves that this time it's different to all those other movements we approve of, feel relatable or empathetic to. Nobody thinks they are vulnerable to this, but we all are, including me. I feel that empathy here, want to be charitable and give benefit of the doubt to 'my side', in a way it takes a conscious effort to do for yours, and we're not going to agree on this.

If you read the whole article, there is a clear statement that authorities are reluctant to differentiate in their statistics, which delays revealing the true picture, and that the rising impression is that there are increasingly more people willing to self-ID as women, either to commit sex-offences, or afterwards to ensure they are imprisoned with prospective victims. This was not the case before the post-modernists took over the debate, and they have opened opportunities for such people to jump on the bandwagon and disguise their intention. One discovery was an online group of “INCELS” that chose transition to improve their dating pool, which backfired because lesbians don’t want to date them. The lumping of all these people together under LGBT+ is a disservice to people who have genuine problems with their sex at birth, and after transition would like to blend in with society as the opposite sex. They don't want the attention they are getting, and lesbians feel that they have been expelled from the movement that one fought for their rights.

[Belindi]

Stoppelmann

From saying you want to present both sides and be be reasonable, you've ended up presenting only one side and posting any old unlinked quote to back up the TERF position. I don't doubt your sincerity or that you're well meaning, but that's propagandising, and I'm no longer interested in engaging.

I think the problem is that I began on the side of trans people, and still am when it comes to people taking a reasonable position, for which there are many examples of transitioned people who have stated quite categorically that the way activists are presenting their cause is contra-productive, and doubt has grown that these activists are really representing them. Like I said, it seems as though an extreme form of post-modernism has hijacked the issue and employs anyone willing to protest against the “social construct” of sex affiliation, including confused young people who have made it their only purpose in life.

The examples I gave were headlines that showed a mixed portrayal of the issue, on the one hand an overbearing domination of women’s events by transidente males, and the acceptance in the media, like the moment transgender singer, Jordan Gray, strips naked live on Channel 4 and plays the keyboard with “her” penis on live television and says on twitter, 'tonight we make history.' And on the other side there were examples of exploitation of that acceptance, for which women and girls have had to suffer. I feel that I have tried to balance the issue, but in the momentary situation, the activists are drowning out the concerns of women, and the media and institutions are allowing it. As soon as someone sits up and says, wait a minute, they are called a bigot, right-wing, or worse. Your use of TERF, which is a derogatory terminology for people who have criticised the overwhelming acceptance, the uncritical affirmation of minors with dysphoria, and the criminalisation of people with concerns, is also a problem.

I really don't want to get into tit for tat over anecdotes and 'headline stories' because each side can score points that way as I'm sure you know, and they need tedious fact checking and context. I did try to check up your unlinked post here -

Alicyn Simpson, who works at the UPMC Children’s Hospital Gender program, describes the possibilty of uterine transplants from LIVE DONORS being given to men who are trying to become women. “Most transgender women would choose to have female physiological experiences.”
Just which healthy young women are going be targeted to be “live donors”?

I finally found a tweet containing the quote and a video, where Simpson says it's worth considering in a situation where a FTM trans person choosing to have her uterus removed could donate it to a MTF trans person who would love to have it, rather than it being chucked in the bin.

Yes, there is that aspect, but aren’t we reducing human beings to their parts by doing that? Isn’t a woman more than her uterus? The body is so complex that just swapping a few bits won’t give a male a female experience, instead, there will undoubtedly be complications, and in the end there can be no natural birth because the physiology will not allow it. It is down to surgery, and as if we haven’t already seen how grotesquely mask-like the faces of celebrities have become through surgery, it is all artificial, and the more we cut people up, the more artificial society will become.

It might be a genuine mistake, so I checked your claim about a higher proportion of trans prisonners being sex offenders than cis men and google gave me this article which gives several reasons why this too might be misleading. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

You rightly care about things we should be mindful of, and have made some fair points, but as I've said if we don't check our tendancy to confirmation bias, especially regarding 'the other', it's easy to convince ourselves that this time it's different to all those other movements we approve of, feel relatable or empathetic to. Nobody thinks they are vulnerable to this, but we all are, including me. I feel that empathy here, want to be charitable and give benefit of the doubt to 'my side', in a way it takes a conscious effort to do for yours, and we're not going to agree on this.

If you read the whole article, there is a clear statement that authorities are reluctant to differentiate in their statistics, which delays revealing the true picture, and that the rising impression is that there are increasingly more people willing to self-ID as women, either to commit sex-offences, or afterwards to ensure they are imprisoned with prospective victims. This was not the case before the post-modernists took over the debate, and they have opened opportunities for such people to jump on the bandwagon and disguise their intention. One discovery was an online group of “INCELS” that chose transition to improve their dating pool, which backfired because lesbians don’t want to date them. The lumping of all these people together under LGBT+ is a disservice to people who have genuine problems with their sex at birth, and after transition would like to blend in with society as the opposite sex. They don't want the attention they are getting, and lesbians feel that they have been expelled from the movement that one fought for their rights.

Male -on-female violence (whether it's biological or cultural) can be controlled by a combination of policing and apprehension, and in the longer term by adequate education or diagnoses, especially of boys.

[Stoppelmann]

Male -on-female violence (whether it's biological or cultural) can be controlled by a combination of policing and apprehension, and in the longer term by adequate education or diagnoses, especially of boys.

At present we are denying that a problem exists, which is why it is often the victim that is said to be in the wrong.

[Belindi]

Male -on-female violence (whether it's biological or cultural) can be controlled by a combination of policing and apprehension, and in the longer term by adequate education or diagnoses, especially of boys.

At present we are denying that a problem exists, which is why it is often the victim that is said to be in the wrong.

True! Did you read the Observer today's article about matricide by males?

[Stoppelmann]

Male -on-female violence (whether it's biological or cultural) can be controlled by a combination of policing and apprehension, and in the longer term by adequate education or diagnoses, especially of boys.

At present we are denying that a problem exists, which is why it is often the victim that is said to be in the wrong.

True! Did you read the Observer today's article about matricide by males?

No, I have read this though: https://www.vice.com/en/article/wd7wnw/ ... ir-mothers

And this: https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... tain-abuse

[Consul]

…the TERF position.

You shouldn't use this term of abuse to refer to gender-critical feminists!

Gender-critical feminism is sex-based feminism: It affirms the irreducible reality of biological sex, of naturally sexed bodies. It denies that the concept of sex is reducible to or replaceable by the concept of gender qua subjective identity/identification. It accepts the concept of gender qua "set of social norms and expectations imposed on the basis of sex" (H. Lawford-Smith).

QUOTE>
"[G]ender-critical feminism is concerned about gender identity ideology because it is concerned with women as a sex class/caste, and the ongoing fight for women’s liberation."

(Lawford-Smith, Holly. Gender-Critical Feminism. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2022. p. 66)

"Gender as identity. There is no sex/gender distinction, there is only gender. Sex, the idea that humans can be sorted into two biological types, male and female, is an outdated concept. Sex is a spectrum; or there are many different sexes; or there is really no such thing as sex, just a set of bad ideas imposed onto arbitrary features of bodies. Whatever sex is or was, it doesn’t matter anymore. What matters is gender, in particular, gender understood as identity. Every human person has a gender identity, at minimum ‘man’, ‘woman’, or ‘nonbinary’. This new way of sorting people into categories supersedes sex, but takes over the role that sex used to play, for example as the basis of romantic and sexual attractions between people, or as the trait determining which social spaces can be appropriately used. According to this view, transwomen are women, transmen are men, and nonbinary people are neither women nor men. A transwoman belongs on a women’s sports team, or in a women’s prison, or in a women’s domestic violence refuge. Same-sex attractions are ‘transphobic’. Women-centred language is ‘exclusionary’ if it refers to biological traits. Wearing ***** hats and t-shirts with uteruses printed on them to the women’s march is bad; it suggests a connection between women and vulvas, women and uteruses. But some men have vulvas and uteruses (transmen), and some women don’t (transwomen).

Gender as social norms and expectations. There is a sex/gender distinction, and sex is indispensable to it. There are two sexes, male and female, and intersex conditions do not undermine this. Gender is a set of social norms and expectations imposed on the basis of sex. There is no understanding gender without sex. Women are subject to the expectation that they be feminine, men that they be masculine. Men are valued more highly than women. Understanding gender as norms imposed on the basis of sex allows us to make predictions, for example about who will be subject to social sanctions (masculine and other gender norm non-conforming women, feminine and other gender norm non-conforming men). And it allows us to think about the social construction of femininity, the ways that women have been ‘made’ to be feminine, both throughout history, and within an individual woman’s lifetime. This understanding allows us to critique a range of social practices, for example the standards of beauty by which women are assessed. These may require women to spend more time and money, and accept more pain and discomfort, than men (for example, to purchase skincare regimens, makeup, hair products, clothing and shoes; to take the extra time needed to apply makeup and style hair; to have body hair plucked, waxed, or lasered; to undergo cosmetic surgeries like breast implants, nose jobs, or labiaplasties). It is the social construction of womanhood that causes some women to dis-identify with womanhood and in some cases attempt to disaffiliate from womanhood (‘I am not like that, so I must not be a woman’). And conversely, it is the social construction of womanhood that attracts some people who are not female to identify with womanhood and in some cases affiliate with womanhood (‘I am like that, so I must be a woman’)."

(Lawford-Smith, Holly. Gender-Critical Feminism. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2022. pp. ix-xi)
<QUOTE

[Stoppelmann]

As predicted, the Scottish Green party and The SNP will now railroad legislation to ensure 6 year olds can legally change gender. Read that again - your 6 year old.

Teachers can keep this from you and talking a child out of it is soon to become a hate crime.

[Pattern-chaser]

It has to do with the misrepresentation of the situation of transpeople. Normal people, especially women, suffer a higher degree of erasure, abuse, violence and misrepresentation than transpeople, although we are told otherwise. There is an ideological push that manages to suggest that transpeople are the most oppressed group ever, and that the reaction to violence from them is unreasonable.

That's a remarkable claim. Do you have any links or references to this? 'Normal' people are subject to greater discrimination than transgender people? Really?

[Pattern-chaser]

As predicted, the Scottish Green party and The SNP will now railroad legislation to ensure 6 year olds can legally change gender. Read that again - your 6 year old.

Teachers can keep this from you and talking a child out of it is soon to become a hate crime.

Again, really? You have references or links to support this rather surprising claim?

[Stoppelmann]

It has to do with the misrepresentation of the situation of transpeople. Normal people, especially women, suffer a higher degree of erasure, abuse, violence and misrepresentation than transpeople, although we are told otherwise. There is an ideological push that manages to suggest that transpeople are the most oppressed group ever, and that the reaction to violence from them is unreasonable.

That's a remarkable claim. Do you have any links or references to this? 'Normal' people are subject to greater discrimination than transgender people? Really?

Follow https://twitter.com/CountDeadWomen and you'll be shocked. Also, look at the stats available from the UN on misogyny.