There is no meaning to life

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Re: There is no meaning to life

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Greta wrote: January 5th, 2021, 8:21 pm Yes, and the most ridiculous is the idea that human lives are meaningful, purely due to the meaning we give it.
I sense that you're making an unwarranted scope equivocation here, so that your first occurrence of "meaningful" is much broader than your second occurrence.

First, we need to clarify what sense of the term "meaning" we're using. Usually in these sorts of discussions it's something along the lines of "purpose" or a sort of "directedness" or "significance." Meaningful in this sense (as well as other senses) only obtains insofar as one assigns meaning. It goes no further than that. (Hence the scope problem.)

So, in other words, if Joe says that the "meaning of life" to him is "to have a good time all the time," then that's the meaning that Joe has assigned life. It goes no further than that. It goes no further than being a fact about how Joe thinks about the purpose/directedness/significance of his life.
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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evolution wrote: January 5th, 2021, 10:02 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: May 20th, 2020, 9:05 am

Exactly.
It could also be said that there is also no meaning to ANY other word, as well, than what you create for yourself.

The meaning, therefore, to EVERY word is just thee one that you create for yourself.
Meaning in the semantic sense is an individual creation as well, yes.
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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Terrapin Station wrote: January 6th, 2021, 4:16 pm So, in other words, if Joe says that the "meaning of life" to him is "to have a good time all the time," then that's the meaning that Joe has assigned life. It goes no further than that. It goes no further than being a fact about how Joe thinks about the purpose/directedness/significance of his life.
Some people go deeper and upon the consideration that there must be a meaning of life to be able to consider an aim in life to be meaningful, they potentially discover a deep abyss with no ground in sight and may find great difficulty to establish a convincing (authentic) mindset that provides purpose - a driving force or motivation - for their individual life.

Authenticity may be the key. When one grasps for a ground, one can find that it is not so easy to accept the value in the world (e.g. having a good time) as the meaning of life.

Why does value exist? Why should one create value? Why anything at all?

One then derives at the question what is the meaning of life? which isn't about food or having a good time. It is about something deeper, about the origin of emotions, about the origin of a feeling of purpose and fulfillment, about the origin of anything at all.

People who question so deeply may be motivated by authenticity. Without authenticity on a deeper level, one would lose one's identity and mind. The question can make one aware that his/her mental foundation isn't as secure as one may expect to be normal, which may result in anxiety and ideas leading to suicide.

Authenticity and finding meaning in life may be a key for talent, art and human performance. Many talented and top performing people have struggled with the question, which shows that the origin of the question may be something fundamental and that despite having success, thousands of friends and a rich social life, the question (or inability to answer it) is just as critical.

It may be relevant to consider whether a purpose of life is applicable to be considered as precursor to any value in the world.
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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Terrapin Station wrote: January 5th, 2021, 7:41 pm
Is there no meaning to life other than what one creates for him/her-self? And would a corporate perspective equally apply?

The perspective would imply that there would be no meaning to life other than what would be determined after creation has taken place, i.e. what can be considered valuable after it has been created. How could such a retro-perspective be the meaning of life?
??? Not sure what you're saying in detail there, but values are ways that individuals feel about various things. They're preferences that individuals have. Value doesn't exist outside of dispositions that individuals have, because of how an individual's brain works.
Value can be found in the simplest pattern. The assumption that the laws of physics (Nature) are static and that facts can obtained on the basis of that foundation that differ from truths, is a dogmatic belief in uniformitarianism. Therefor, all what can be seen in the world is value.

The essence of a pattern implies purpose and that purpose cannot be other than observability. The observer (the origin of life) must therefor precede value which implies that the question "what is the purpose of life?" is applicable on a fundamental level. Purpose cannot originate from value.
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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Terrapin Station wrote: January 6th, 2021, 4:16 pm
Greta wrote: January 5th, 2021, 8:21 pm Yes, and the most ridiculous is the idea that human lives are meaningful, purely due to the meaning we give it.
I sense that you're making an unwarranted scope equivocation here, so that your first occurrence of "meaningful" is much broader than your second occurrence.

First, we need to clarify what sense of the term "meaning" we're using. Usually in these sorts of discussions it's something along the lines of "purpose" or a sort of "directedness" or "significance." Meaningful in this sense (as well as other senses) only obtains insofar as one assigns meaning. It goes no further than that. (Hence the scope problem.)

So, in other words, if Joe says that the "meaning of life" to him is "to have a good time all the time," then that's the meaning that Joe has assigned life. It goes no further than that. It goes no further than being a fact about how Joe thinks about the purpose/directedness/significance of his life.
Okay, I'll change the wording. The message remains the same.

The most ridiculous idea is that people create their own meaning. If "meaning" involves just staying alive, being happy or trying to help others do the same, then that is laughably limp and basic.

Since religions have long claimed that only they can provide meaning to life, the secular world seems compelled to compete and pretend that non-religious life has just as much meaning meaning as the religious life. In a sense they are right in that religious and secular life are just as meaningless and egoistic as each other. We resist the idea that we are basic and trivial, but we are.

Look where our grand morals have lead us to - overpopulation, mass extinctions, mass pollution, mass corruption, delusion and aggression. The results don't lie. The whole game was a con from the start. "You can be anything you want!". "Dare to live the dream!".

Logically, the only meaning to any individual's life is that of a stepping stone towards entities that will hopefully be mature and aware enough to create or understand meaning.
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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Greta wrote: January 6th, 2021, 7:32 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: January 6th, 2021, 4:16 pm

I sense that you're making an unwarranted scope equivocation here, so that your first occurrence of "meaningful" is much broader than your second occurrence.

First, we need to clarify what sense of the term "meaning" we're using. Usually in these sorts of discussions it's something along the lines of "purpose" or a sort of "directedness" or "significance." Meaningful in this sense (as well as other senses) only obtains insofar as one assigns meaning. It goes no further than that. (Hence the scope problem.)

So, in other words, if Joe says that the "meaning of life" to him is "to have a good time all the time," then that's the meaning that Joe has assigned life. It goes no further than that. It goes no further than being a fact about how Joe thinks about the purpose/directedness/significance of his life.
Okay, I'll change the wording. The message remains the same.

The most ridiculous idea is that people create their own meaning. If "meaning" involves just staying alive, being happy or trying to help others do the same, then that is laughably limp and basic.

Since religions have long claimed that only they can provide meaning to life, the secular world seems compelled to compete and pretend that non-religious life has just as much meaning meaning as the religious life. In a sense they are right in that religious and secular life are just as meaningless and egoistic as each other. We resist the idea that we are basic and trivial, but we are.

Look where our grand morals have lead us to - overpopulation, mass extinctions, mass pollution, mass corruption, delusion and aggression. The results don't lie. The whole game was a con from the start. "You can be anything you want!". "Dare to live the dream!".

Logically, the only meaning to any individual's life is that of a stepping stone towards entities that will hopefully be mature and aware enough to create or understand meaning.
What sort of entities do you have in mind there?
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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arjand wrote: January 6th, 2021, 6:52 pm Value can be found in the simplest pattern. The assumption that the laws of physics (Nature) are static and that facts can obtained on the basis of that foundation that differ from truths, is a dogmatic belief in uniformitarianism. Therefor, all what can be seen in the world is value.
So can you give an example of what, let's say, the floor in the room where you're accessing the Internet at the moment, values? (And how would you check what it values versus what it doesn't value?)
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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arjand wrote: January 6th, 2021, 5:42 pm Why does value exist? Why should one create value? Why anything at all?
Brains work so that some things release neurotransmitters like endorphins and dopamine. These chemicals are correlated with healthy states of various organs and systems. Endorphins especially are involved in feelings of pleasure. Preferences--the things we value--are geared towards experiences that produce (or gain) certain chemicals/chemical balances, and geared towards avoiding experiences that produce or gain other chemicals/chemical balances. Just what produces a certain state in someone can vary from individual to individual. The variance stems from different brain structures and functioning, which are due to both genetics and environmental factors.
One then derives at the question what is the meaning of life? which isn't about food or having a good time.
It depends on who you ask. Different people have different ideas (if this is something they even care about). There are no right or wrong answers in this arena.
It is about something deeper,
There's nothing "deep" or "shallow" about any particular answer. Different people have different preferences and concerns. We can accept that without having to judge anyone as "deeper" or "shallower" than others.
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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Terrapin Station wrote: January 6th, 2021, 7:34 pm
Greta wrote: January 6th, 2021, 7:32 pm
Okay, I'll change the wording. The message remains the same.

The most ridiculous idea is that people create their own meaning. If "meaning" involves just staying alive, being happy or trying to help others do the same, then that is laughably limp and basic.

Since religions have long claimed that only they can provide meaning to life, the secular world seems compelled to compete and pretend that non-religious life has just as much meaning meaning as the religious life. In a sense they are right in that religious and secular life are just as meaningless and egoistic as each other. We resist the idea that we are basic and trivial, but we are.

Look where our grand morals have lead us to - overpopulation, mass extinctions, mass pollution, mass corruption, delusion and aggression. The results don't lie. The whole game was a con from the start. "You can be anything you want!". "Dare to live the dream!".

Logically, the only meaning to any individual's life is that of a stepping stone towards entities that will hopefully be mature and aware enough to create or understand meaning.
What sort of entities do you have in mind there?
What sort of entities do you have in mind? Or do you believe that humans are evolution's final product?
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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Greta wrote: January 6th, 2021, 7:32 pmWe resist the idea that we are basic and trivial, but we are.
Then, in order to be consistent, you shouldn't take issue with things such as overpopulation, mass extinctions, mass pollution, mass corruption, delusion and aggression.
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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Greta wrote: January 6th, 2021, 8:28 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: January 6th, 2021, 7:34 pm

What sort of entities do you have in mind there?
What sort of entities do you have in mind? Or do you believe that humans are evolution's final product?
I was asking the question to you with respect to "Logically, the only meaning to any individual's life is that of a stepping stone towards entities that will hopefully be mature and aware enough to create or understand meaning."

I'm not sure in what context you'd be asking me the same question.

Are you saying that you were referring to some evolutionary development from humans? So that you're saying that humans are not mature and aware enough to create or understand meaning but some further evolutionary development would be?

And sure, there are going to be other evolutionary developments in the future, re creatures that don't presently exist.
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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baker wrote: January 7th, 2021, 7:56 am
Greta wrote: January 6th, 2021, 7:32 pmWe resist the idea that we are basic and trivial, but we are.
Then, in order to be consistent, you shouldn't take issue with things such as overpopulation, mass extinctions, mass pollution, mass corruption, delusion and aggression.
Individually we are trivial.
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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Terrapin Station wrote: January 7th, 2021, 9:27 am
Greta wrote: January 6th, 2021, 8:28 pm
What sort of entities do you have in mind? Or do you believe that humans are evolution's final product?
I was asking the question to you with respect to "Logically, the only meaning to any individual's life is that of a stepping stone towards entities that will hopefully be mature and aware enough to create or understand meaning."

I'm not sure in what context you'd be asking me the same question.

Are you saying that you were referring to some evolutionary development from humans? So that you're saying that humans are not mature and aware enough to create or understand meaning but some further evolutionary development would be?

And sure, there are going to be other evolutionary developments in the future, re creatures that don't presently exist.
Yes, as per previous posts, we humans are simple beings, and the simplest of us are barely different to other primates. Just as we would not expect a chimp or a child to understand superannuation, we cannot expect humans at this stage to understand the meaning of life.

Physically, our space explorations have taken us not far from home in relative terms, we have drilled just 12kms down into the Earth, the ocean floor remains mostly a mystery. In terms of evolution, we still do not know how abiogenesis occurred or what consciousness is.

As for governing ourselves, we are unable to devise sustainable societies and we cannot stop ourselves wiping out the great and iconic species that we love. KThe new breed of kleptocrats like Putin, Erdogan, Bolsonaro and the outgoing Trump, and mad dictators like Xi and Kim, make clear that we don't know how to deal with chronic liars - those who never admit their crimes. Instead, we simply fall under their sway.

Science is young. Until embracing the scientific method in recent times, humans were deeply subject to superstition. And humans, after just a few centuries of tentative research on a 4.5b year-old planet in a 14b year-old universe that is about 100th of the way into its lifespan, think they can understand the meaning of life? That's like expecting a one year-old to understand the meaning of adulthood.

So it seems more than likely that entities in the future - here or elsewhere - will evolve that will develop a far deeper understanding of life than humans in the 21st century, which is still capable of falling for the most blatant of childish lies. I doubt that our brains have sufficient capacity to do so, just as a dog's brain does not have the capacity, and a baby's brain lacks the organisation and experience, to solve mathematical equations.

Perhaps the main issue is the problem of other minds, the impermeability of mentality. In the future, it seems likely that entities will emerge that are capable of processing multiple viewpoints simultaneously just as individuals currently process multiple senses. From there, what evolution does is far beyond any current observer's capabilities.
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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Greta wrote: January 7th, 2021, 5:31 pm Yes, as per previous posts, we humans are simple beings, and the simplest of us are barely different to other primates. Just as we would not expect a chimp or a child to understand superannuation, we cannot expect humans at this stage to understand the meaning of life.
But this is suggesting that the meaning of life would be something other than the creation of an individual person. What reason is there to believe this?
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Re: There is no meaning to life

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Terrapin Station wrote: January 7th, 2021, 5:47 pmBut this is suggesting that the meaning of life would be something other than the creation of an individual person. What reason is there to believe this?
The rich history of the discussion on the "meaning of life".
Terry Eagleton gives a nice overview.
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