Teenage Philosophers?

[TeenPhilosopher]

Hello, I don't believe I have formally introduced myself on these forums, or any other forums for that matter, but I am Alejandro Rocha. I am currently twelve years of age, soon to be thirteen, and study Psychology, Sociology, Cosmology and Physics, as well as History and Cultural Studies (Cultures fascinate me, I don't know any other way to put it), and most of all, Philosophy. I speak English, Spanish, un peu de Francais (French), and understand other (except Romanian) Romance languages. I have dedicated myself to the pursuit of knowledge, wisdom, and meaning. I have recently ( 6 months ~ ) started studying scholasticism, though I have had an interest in philosophy since March 21st of 2011 ( Don't ask, I'm a kind of a documentation freak).

I certainly know that the vast majority of children do not enjoy most, if any, of the subjects I mentioned. And that a very significant portion of students share no interest when it comes to the matter of learning, leave alone, understanding. In fact, so far I have met only two people who share my interest in philosophy (albeit, one lied, and the other was not studying classical philosophy as such, but rather simply in the habit of questioning existence and other metaphysical aspects of philosophy). I believe that school makes matters worse for children.

Teachers are so ignorant as to believe that there is a "method" to "teach" students "knowledge". They make school and consequently, learning and understanding appear so boring and distasteful as to really give 90% if not more, of students the idea that learning is boring and meaningless. Teachers in addition to their ignorance don't really care if students learn or not and just make their way through classes until payday and just hope students turn in good grades.

That's another aspect of the educational system that I honestly despise. Grades become so, and I mean, so important that educators lose the ability to distinguish between a bad student and someone who has to learn differently. So important that students don't waste their time trying to understand whatever the subject is really about, just memorizing facts and forgetting them after tests. So important that adults base their beliefs about their child's intelligence and knowledge on grades, and punish them if they fall behind a certain point. This creates a cycle of fear that is attributed to the school. From the child's perspective, learning is boring, and if they don't get good grades, punishment is sure to follow from both teachers (in ridicule or disliking) and parents (taking away privileges or rewards) ergo, school is both hated and distrusted with only the social aspect of school being enjoyable, which in turn, drives them further away from knowledge and understanding.

But I return to my intended point. When did most of you start studying or enjoying philosophy? Do you know of any people who started philosophizing younger, perhaps in the teen years? What drove you to study philosophy? Most importantly, at what age do you believe that children can really understand the point of philosophy and the purpose of meaning? I know or rather, I believe that I know it, but then again I could be a notable exception. Help me out by telling me your views on children and their intellectual capacities (please do not post any biased ageist comments about how I don't really know anything or something like that) and more of, and how they would more or less generally develop throughout the years.

[Spectrum]

Wow..12 years old.

IMO, philosophy in the widest sense is the inherent impulse in human beings to continually improve its current state to some next level positively and effectively. In this sense, every human is doing 'philosophy' albeit unconsciously. Every human being should be guided to bring this inherent philosophical drive to their conscious level from the earliest possible age in some ways.

However, generally, philosophy as it is generally presented in the West is not in alignment with the above mentioned philosophical drive. Western philosophy leveraged on the ancient Greek's philosophy which had become narrower and narrower till it is now bastardized as academic philosophy and a career. This approach is still good for a specific purpose, but it is incomplete when contrasted with philosophy as an inherent drive for continous improvement toward an optimal life.

If you are interested in Western philosophy, there is a lot of information obtainable from the internet (you probably know) or one can enrol in a philosophy course or tutorial.
Unfortunately for philosophy as an inherent drive, there is no structured course or leaning that is readily available for guidance. One will have to gather it oneself and improve with experience and age.

It is highy recommendable to start early, but a balanced life in alignment with age is very necessary, for example, regretting a lost childhood.

[TeenPhilosopher]

I never really thought to think of it in that way. While I understood that every person practiced philosophy more or less to your definition, I never really thought to distinguish between the way that I practiced/studied philosophy to the way that most other Western "philosophers" (as in, by merit/career) did so. Your response is very informative and clear, I appreciate that, and I also have some other things going on in my life, which I prefer not to mention, that make life a little more difficult and emotionally depriving, so philosophy is a good thing to think about for me, as it helps me look at things more objectively. I will keep in mind my age and enjoyment throughout my childhood and life, however. Thank you so much!

[Grotto19]

Very good post TeenPhilosopher. I wish that I had the non conformist spirit that you have when I was your age. I was very inquisitive as well but allowed societal pressures to stymie my intellectual growth when I was your age. I think you should certainly continue your intellectual pursuit, I can only imagine the heights you can achieve having started in earnest so young.

I do not know where you hail from but the trouble I see in the American school and social system is a heavy repression of critical thinking and pressure to conform to intellectual norms. Intelligent students who wish to reach farther than the curriculum are often ridiculed by students and also held down by teachers who often feel threatened by such intellect.

I did not truly engage fully in philosophy until I had some very difficult experiences at war that challenged my faith in humanity and society. This re kindled with fervor my desire for understanding, but unfortunately for me this did not occur until I was 31 years old. It pains me to think the same questions I would ask at 12 years old did not get perused by me until I was over 30. So much wasted time.

You had asked at what age a child can start really learning philosophy. I would say that it is as soon as the child shows interest in it. This happens often at a very early age, regarding some of the most challenging questions which still remain unanswered by us. Such as "is there a god"(religion), "what happens to grandma when she dies"(metaphysics), "what makes something beautiful" (aesthetics), "why is it wrong to pick my nose" (ethics) and so many others.

We often stymie the child's interest right then by giving them a prefabricated answer instead of engaging them in a philosophical way. Simply providing an answer based on ones own personal belief or dismissing the question with "I don't know sweetie" is what the majority of us do, and it does nothing to strengthen the child's reasoning abilities and intellectual growth. I would suggest having a philosophical dialogue with the child, regardless of how simplistic that dialogue would have to be, and watch as his/her mind grows exponentially from being exercised. I would not be surprised that if a parent did this his or her child may have more depth than the parent by the time it reached it's teen years.

The only negative I can see to raising a child in this way is the inevitable battle with ones 16 year old daughter regarding her having a curfew in which her logic and reason is crushing your own. However the parent if need be can always use their ultimate atom bomb of debate if needed, that being the "because I said so". And besides I believe a son or daughter raised this way would have the intellect and reason to make far better choices when they eventually do sneak out (and they will eventually). Reason is the strongest weapon a child can have to fight peer pressure.

[TeenPhilosopher]

Wow, Grotto thank you very much for that very descriptive and well written response, it also certainly is in line with what I have seen so far, and I appreciate it! This is not really related to this specific conversation, but I think I hit the GOLD RUSH with this site. It's great!

[Misty]

Hello Teenphilosopher,

It is very nice to meet you. I was very impressed with your topic post. You will encounter many smart people on this forum. They will treat you like an adult and give you no slack for your age. You sound like you can handle it. It is a little intimidating when a child is smarter than the adults. Remember though, you will change your mind many times about everything while growing into a man. Keep an open mind. May I ask if you ever had any religious training? I only ask because I am curious, and of course you don't have to answer.

My only credentials are reading, age, life experiences. At least I have 'age' on you! It will be fun to interact with you, and be a part of your growth and you a part of ours. Welcome, Misty

[TeenPhilosopher]

Wow, thank you very much Misty! I have noticed that people give me respect, I'm certainly enjoying that. I know I have to be open to new ideas, a philosopher without examination, is like une fleur sans soleil (A flower without sun - Amelie)! I have not had any religious training, I am an atheist like my father, and my mother is an "agnostic" meaning she flips flops between Catholicism and atheism. I however had read the Bible, attended Mass, been to Mormon churches (I lived in Salt Lake City for three years) I enjoy people who don't take philosophy as a merit, and more as a lifestyle, the way it should be. I appreciate all of your welcomes and posts, thank you all!

[A Poster He or I]

Hello TeenPhilosopher,

We've already encountered each other over in the Philosophy of Science forum, but welcome. To answer some of your questions.

I started to get curious about philosophy when I left the Roman Catholic church at age 16, but could not integrate what I encountered because my reading was too sporadic and I had virtually no frame of reference. With the help of various "history of Western Philosophy" styled summaries, however, I pretty much had a comprehensive overview of things up to about Thomas Aquinas by the age of 18, but had lost interest because it seemed very academic and of no applicable value to my life. However, at college I also encountered Hinduism and Buddhism and suddenly was revived by Eastern philosophy. I briefly became a quasi-Buddhist but my particular practices led to health problems and I decided Bhuddhism was for someone ready to leave their humanity behind, not for an 18-year old nerd who hadn't yet discovered his humanity.

At 19 my first girlfriend introduced me to Ayn Rand. I devoured all her novels and newsletters, but after 3 years abandoned her philosophy ("Objectivism") after I figured out it was really just a form of dogmatic theism with God replaced by Existence, and a very naive epistemological theory to boot. But my attempts to figure out "what went wrong" with Rand finally got me into modern philosophy which proved so fascinating I've never lost interest since, and now I'm 53.

I think any intelligent child of ten has the potential to understand the point of philosophy and the purpose of meaning. What I do NOT believe is that a child or a teenager, however intelligent, has the wisdom necessary to fully integrate philosophy and meaning with the daily business of living life. Wisdom is forged by the integration of intellect and life experience. Life experience doesn't come from books and classrooms. Wisdom yields more than understanding (a smart, reflective 10 year old can potentially UNDERSTAND anything); it yields appreciation. Every change I've gone through in my philosophical beliefs has occurred because accruing wisdom has allowed me to appreciate a more comprehensive view of existence with greater integrative and exlanatory potential than what I had believed before.

[Grotto19]

Hello TeenPhilosopher,

We've already encountered each other over in the Philosophy of Science forum, but welcome. To answer some of your questions.

I started to get curious about philosophy when I left the Roman Catholic church at age 16, but could not integrate what I encountered because my reading was too sporadic and I had virtually no frame of reference. With the help of various "history of Western Philosophy" styled summaries, however, I pretty much had a comprehensive overview of things up to about Thomas Aquinas by the age of 18, but had lost interest because it seemed very academic and of no applicable value to my life. However, at college I also encountered Hinduism and Buddhism and suddenly was revived by Eastern philosophy. I briefly became a quasi-Buddhist but my particular practices led to health problems and I decided Bhuddhism was for someone ready to leave their humanity behind, not for an 18-year old nerd who hadn't yet discovered his humanity.

At 19 my first girlfriend introduced me to Ayn Rand. I devoured all her novels and newsletters, but after 3 years abandoned her philosophy ("Objectivism") after I figured out it was really just a form of dogmatic theism with God replaced by Existence, and a very naive epistemological theory to boot. But my attempts to figure out "what went wrong" with Rand finally got me into modern philosophy which proved so fascinating I've never lost interest since, and now I'm 53.

I think any intelligent child of ten has the potential to understand the point of philosophy and the purpose of meaning. What I do NOT believe is that a child or a teenager, however intelligent, has the wisdom necessary to fully integrate philosophy and meaning with the daily business of living life. Wisdom is forged by the integration of intellect and life experience. Life experience doesn't come from books and classrooms. Wisdom yields more than understanding (a smart, reflective 10 year old can potentially UNDERSTAND anything); it yields appreciation. Every change I've gone through in my philosophical beliefs has occurred because accruing wisdom has allowed me to appreciate a more comprehensive view of existence with greater integrative and exlanatory potential than what I had believed before.

That is totally true about having the experience to apply what you understand, and also even provides the perspective to attain proper understanding. However I certainly met people of any age who never managed to gain much wisdom along with the years. I would also suggest that as wise as we may be, sometimes fresh eyes can reveal new insights to ideas we may have been closed of to by our experience. I am certainly excited to read posts from a new and youthful but clearly intelligent perspective.

[Belinda]

Thanks, Teen Philosopher, for your invitation to tell when I first understood a philosophical idea.I was about ten years old and my brother ,eleven years older than I, briefly explained solipsism to me. My brother I may say was a good explainer, he wanted to be an English teacher from an early age. I found the idea of solipsism hilariously funny.Later on when I was fourteen the headmistress at school mentioned pantheism in connection with the Romantic poets and I liked this very much, and pursued the idea into philosophic pantheism. I also liked melancholy Jacques's speech( in As You Like It) All the world's a stage which made me think about transience but not in a sad way.

[TeenPhilosopher]

Belinda,

1) Where do you find the time to posts 6900 posts?

2) That's great! Glad to know that someone else on this forum started at an early age. Thanks for your response!

[A Poster He or I]

Complete agreement, Grotto19.

[TeenPhilosopher]

Wow, for some reason I never even SAW your post, A Poster He or I, or Grotto's response.

A Poster He or I,

1) Your life story involving philosophy is very interesting, I have not read Ayn Rand, but might start now, if just to see what value I could restore from her apparently "naive" perspectives.

2) What exactly do you mean by Wisdom? There are so many definitions of the word, to the point that one could make jokes about it. I believe (at the risk of sounding arrogant) that I have the potential to understand and appreciate things, especially love, happiness (which I have recently been deprived of), life itself, and most of all, beauty. We might be referring to different things when he say "appreciate" as well as "Wisdom", could you please give more accurate descriptions?

Grotto,

1) What you say, I believe can be summarized in the quote by (if memory serves) Aldous Huxley "Experience is not what happens to a man, but what a man does with what happens to him."

2) Thank you for treating me fairly, at least adults that I have physically met are almost always (and always, to some extent) doubtful of my intellectual capacity simply due to my age. I do not blame them, but find that they could be more open, which is precisely why I enjoy this site so much.

[Grotto19]

Wow, for some reason I never even SAW your post, A Poster He or I, or Grotto's response.

A Poster He or I,

1) Your life story involving philosophy is very interesting, I have not read Ayn Rand, but might start now, if just to see what value I could restore from her apparently "naive" perspectives.

2) What exactly do you mean by Wisdom? There are so many definitions of the word, to the point that one could make jokes about it. I believe (at the risk of sounding arrogant) that I have the potential to understand and appreciate things, especially love, happiness (which I have recently been deprived of), life itself, and most of all, beauty. We might be referring to different things when he say "appreciate" as well as "Wisdom", could you please give more accurate descriptions?

Grotto,

1) What you say, I believe can be summarized in the quote by (if memory serves) Aldous Huxley "Experience is not what happens to a man, but what a man does with what happens to him."

2) Thank you for treating me fairly, at least adults that I have physically met are almost always (and always, to some extent) doubtful of my intellectual capacity simply due to my age. I do not blame them, but find that they could be more open, which is precisely why I enjoy this site so much.

I like that quote very much. I have a thread on here for favorite quotes and I see you know many, please post some there if you have the time.

Adults (actually most everyone) have a tendency to equate everything to what is most common to their experience. If most young people they meet are not very mature they come to assume that all are not. It is human nature I suppose to close our minds in this way, perhaps we would be crushed by critical thinking if we did not do this. However I try to make a point that whenever I encounter an anomaly, to keep it in mind as best I can. I have met at least two people who startled me with their wisdom despite being substantially younger than myself (and I regard myself as wiser than the average bear). I hold that in my mind always. The key to an open mind for me is two things.

1. Realize always that there is a good possibility that you are wrong.

2. When you see something defies your knowledge, internalize it and incorporate it into your philosophy.

[TeenPhilosopher]

(Nested quote removed.)


I like that quote very much. I have a thread on here for favorite quotes and I see you know many, please post some there if you have the time.

Adults (actually most everyone) have a tendency to equate everything to what is most common to their experience. If most young people they meet are not very mature they come to assume that all are not. It is human nature I suppose to close our minds in this way, perhaps we would be crushed by critical thinking if we did not do this. However I try to make a point that whenever I encounter an anomaly, to keep it in mind as best I can. I have met at least two people who startled me with their wisdom despite being substantially younger than myself (and I regard myself as wiser than the average bear). I hold that in my mind always. The key to an open mind for me is two things.

1. Realize always that there is a good possibility that you are wrong.

2. When you see something defies your knowledge, internalize it and incorporate it into your philosophy.

Grotto,

1) I will post on, as well as look through, your thread!

2) Yes it is in human psychology to do so. That has been exploited COUNTLESS times by... well, everyone, but mostly politicians.

3) Thank you for your advice, I try to do so as much as I can, but at times I can forget, and can end up looking and worse, behaving, rudely or ignorantly.