Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

Use this forum to discuss the April 2024 Philosophy Book of the Month, Now or Never by Mary Wasche
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Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

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This topic is about the April 2024 Philosophy Book of the Month, Now or Never by Mary Wasche.



In this book, the protagonist Jennifer Davis's poignant journey into self-discovery through separation from her family underscores the profound need for recognition and appreciation within familial relationships. Jennifer feels marginalized and undervalued, a sentiment that resonates with many who perceive their roles within their families as taken for granted. Her decision to leave, driven by a quest for appreciation, serves as a compelling narrative to explore the deeper implications of acknowledgment in shaping family dynamics and individual self-esteem.

The story vividly illustrates how the lack of recognition can erode one's sense of self-worth and disrupt family harmony. In Jennifer's case, her drastic measure of distancing herself from her family highlights an extreme response to what many might experience daily. This lack of appreciation not only impacts the individual but can resonate through the entire family structure, suggesting a universal truth about human relationships: recognition is not just a nicety, but a necessity.

This narrative prompts us to reflect on the broader societal and psychological effects of appreciation. In an era where self-worth is often measured by external validation, the story raises critical questions about the dynamics of recognition in our closest relationships.


The-Opposite-of-Gratitude.jpg



How crucial is the role of appreciation in maintaining the health of family relationships?

In what ways can we actively cultivate an environment of mutual recognition and respect in our homes?

What might be the broader societal impact if we fail to meet this fundamental human need for acknowledgment and appreciation?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

Post by Samana Johann »

Maybe it's good to remind on duties. One who fulfills his/her duties has made his/her protections.

As for family, good Sushan, they are following:
Sigalovada Sutta wrote: “The following should be looked upon as the six quarters. The parents should be looked upon as the East, teachers as the South, wife and children as the West, friends and associates as the North, servants and employees as the Nadir, ascetics and brahmans as the Zenith.(8)

“In five ways, young householder, a child should minister to his parents as the East:

(i) Having supported me I shall support them,
(ii) I shall do their duties,
(iii) I shall keep the family tradition,
(iv) I shall make myself worthy of my inheritance,
(v) furthermore I shall offer alms in honor of my departed
relatives.(9)

“In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:

(i) they restrain them from evil,
(ii) they encourage them to do good,
(iii) they train them for a profession,
(iv) they arrange a suitable marriage,
(v) at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them.

“In these five ways do children minister to their parents as the East and the parents show their compassion to their children. Thus is the East covered by them and made safe and secure. ...

“In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband:

(i) by being courteous to her,
(ii) by not despising her,
(iii) by being faithful to her,
(iv) by handing over authority to her,
(v) by providing her with adornments.

“The wife thus ministered to as the West by her husband shows her compassion to her husband in five ways:

(i) she performs her duties well,
(ii) she is hospitable to relations and attendants,
(iii) she is faithful,
(iv) she protects what he brings,
(v) she is skilled and industrious in discharging her duties.

“In these five ways does the wife show her compassion to her husband who ministers to her as the West. Thus is the West covered by him and made safe and secure. ...
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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

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Samana Johann wrote: April 28th, 2024, 2:40 am Maybe it's good to remind on duties. One who fulfills his/her duties has made his/her protections.

As for family, good Sushan, they are following:
Sigalovada Sutta wrote: “The following should be looked upon as the six quarters. The parents should be looked upon as the East, teachers as the South, wife and children as the West, friends and associates as the North, servants and employees as the Nadir, ascetics and brahmans as the Zenith.(8)

“In five ways, young householder, a child should minister to his parents as the East:

(i) Having supported me I shall support them,
(ii) I shall do their duties,
(iii) I shall keep the family tradition,
(iv) I shall make myself worthy of my inheritance,
(v) furthermore I shall offer alms in honor of my departed
relatives.(9)

“In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:

(i) they restrain them from evil,
(ii) they encourage them to do good,
(iii) they train them for a profession,
(iv) they arrange a suitable marriage,
(v) at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them.

“In these five ways do children minister to their parents as the East and the parents show their compassion to their children. Thus is the East covered by them and made safe and secure. ...

“In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband:

(i) by being courteous to her,
(ii) by not despising her,
(iii) by being faithful to her,
(iv) by handing over authority to her,
(v) by providing her with adornments.

“The wife thus ministered to as the West by her husband shows her compassion to her husband in five ways:

(i) she performs her duties well,
(ii) she is hospitable to relations and attendants,
(iii) she is faithful,
(iv) she protects what he brings,
(v) she is skilled and industrious in discharging her duties.

“In these five ways does the wife show her compassion to her husband who ministers to her as the West. Thus is the West covered by him and made safe and secure. ...
The Sigalovada Sutta, as you've referenced, beautifully outlines the duties within family and societal relationships, emphasizing mutual responsibilities that foster respect and care. This text provides a structured guide to interpersonal relations and ethics from a Buddhist perspective, illustrating how recognition and fulfillment of these duties can indeed shape our bonds and personal worth.

Philosophically, this connects deeply with the concept of "reciprocity" which is a fundamental idea not only in Buddhism but in many ethical frameworks across cultures. Reciprocity—supporting and honoring each other in these defined roles—ensures that family and societal structures are maintained harmoniously. It suggests that our personal worth can be significantly shaped by how well we fulfill our roles and duties within these relationships.

In practical terms, fulfilling these duties as outlined can lead to a more stable and harmonious family life, which in turn contributes to personal and collective well-being. It's a reminder that our actions and the roles we play have profound impacts on our relationships and ultimately on our sense of self and our place within the community.

From a modern philosophical viewpoint, one might argue whether these roles and duties are still applicable in contemporary societies where traditional family structures and roles are evolving. This could lead to a discussion about the flexibility of these roles in adapting to modern values and lifestyles while still maintaining the essence of mutual respect and support.

I'm curious about your thoughts on how these principles from the Sigalovada Sutta align with or differ from contemporary understandings of family and social roles in modern Buddhist practice. How do you see these teachings adapting to the challenges of today's world?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

Post by Samana Johann »

Sushan wrote: April 28th, 2024, 3:46 am
Samana Johann wrote: April 28th, 2024, 2:40 am Maybe it's good to remind on duties. One who fulfills his/her duties has made his/her protections.

As for family, good Sushan, they are following:
Sigalovada Sutta wrote: “The following should be looked upon as the six quarters. The parents should be looked upon as the East, teachers as the South, wife and children as the West, friends and associates as the North, servants and employees as the Nadir, ascetics and brahmans as the Zenith.(8)

“In five ways, young householder, a child should minister to his parents as the East:

(i) Having supported me I shall support them,
(ii) I shall do their duties,
(iii) I shall keep the family tradition,
(iv) I shall make myself worthy of my inheritance,
(v) furthermore I shall offer alms in honor of my departed
relatives.(9)

“In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:

(i) they restrain them from evil,
(ii) they encourage them to do good,
(iii) they train them for a profession,
(iv) they arrange a suitable marriage,
(v) at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them.

“In these five ways do children minister to their parents as the East and the parents show their compassion to their children. Thus is the East covered by them and made safe and secure. ...

“In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband:

(i) by being courteous to her,
(ii) by not despising her,
(iii) by being faithful to her,
(iv) by handing over authority to her,
(v) by providing her with adornments.

“The wife thus ministered to as the West by her husband shows her compassion to her husband in five ways:

(i) she performs her duties well,
(ii) she is hospitable to relations and attendants,
(iii) she is faithful,
(iv) she protects what he brings,
(v) she is skilled and industrious in discharging her duties.

“In these five ways does the wife show her compassion to her husband who ministers to her as the West. Thus is the West covered by him and made safe and secure. ...
The Sigalovada Sutta, as you've referenced, beautifully outlines the duties within family and societal relationships, emphasizing mutual responsibilities that foster respect and care. This text provides a structured guide to interpersonal relations and ethics from a Buddhist perspective, illustrating how recognition and fulfillment of these duties can indeed shape our bonds and personal worth.

Philosophically, this connects deeply with the concept of "reciprocity" which is a fundamental idea not only in Buddhism but in many ethical frameworks across cultures. Reciprocity—supporting and honoring each other in these defined roles—ensures that family and societal structures are maintained harmoniously. It suggests that our personal worth can be significantly shaped by how well we fulfill our roles and duties within these relationships.

In practical terms, fulfilling these duties as outlined can lead to a more stable and harmonious family life, which in turn contributes to personal and collective well-being. It's a reminder that our actions and the roles we play have profound impacts on our relationships and ultimately on our sense of self and our place within the community.

From a modern philosophical viewpoint, one might argue whether these roles and duties are still applicable in contemporary societies where traditional family structures and roles are evolving. This could lead to a discussion about the flexibility of these roles in adapting to modern values and lifestyles while still maintaining the essence of mutual respect and support.

I'm curious about your thoughts on how these principles from the Sigalovada Sutta align with or differ from contemporary understandings of family and social roles in modern Buddhist practice. How do you see these teachings adapting to the challenges of today's world?
So it looks like that good householder has already traced the problem: with confusion and deny of clear roles all naturally get total frustrated and lost in a vacuum of utopia liberalism.

The Dhamma is timeless, but it's not for sure if one has the luck to gain birth in good family in an intact society.
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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

Post by Sushan »

Samana Johann wrote: April 28th, 2024, 5:04 am
Sushan wrote: April 28th, 2024, 3:46 am
Samana Johann wrote: April 28th, 2024, 2:40 am Maybe it's good to remind on duties. One who fulfills his/her duties has made his/her protections.

As for family, good Sushan, they are following:
Sigalovada Sutta wrote: “The following should be looked upon as the six quarters. The parents should be looked upon as the East, teachers as the South, wife and children as the West, friends and associates as the North, servants and employees as the Nadir, ascetics and brahmans as the Zenith.(8)

“In five ways, young householder, a child should minister to his parents as the East:

(i) Having supported me I shall support them,
(ii) I shall do their duties,
(iii) I shall keep the family tradition,
(iv) I shall make myself worthy of my inheritance,
(v) furthermore I shall offer alms in honor of my departed
relatives.(9)

“In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:

(i) they restrain them from evil,
(ii) they encourage them to do good,
(iii) they train them for a profession,
(iv) they arrange a suitable marriage,
(v) at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them.

“In these five ways do children minister to their parents as the East and the parents show their compassion to their children. Thus is the East covered by them and made safe and secure. ...

“In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband:

(i) by being courteous to her,
(ii) by not despising her,
(iii) by being faithful to her,
(iv) by handing over authority to her,
(v) by providing her with adornments.

“The wife thus ministered to as the West by her husband shows her compassion to her husband in five ways:

(i) she performs her duties well,
(ii) she is hospitable to relations and attendants,
(iii) she is faithful,
(iv) she protects what he brings,
(v) she is skilled and industrious in discharging her duties.

“In these five ways does the wife show her compassion to her husband who ministers to her as the West. Thus is the West covered by him and made safe and secure. ...
The Sigalovada Sutta, as you've referenced, beautifully outlines the duties within family and societal relationships, emphasizing mutual responsibilities that foster respect and care. This text provides a structured guide to interpersonal relations and ethics from a Buddhist perspective, illustrating how recognition and fulfillment of these duties can indeed shape our bonds and personal worth.

Philosophically, this connects deeply with the concept of "reciprocity" which is a fundamental idea not only in Buddhism but in many ethical frameworks across cultures. Reciprocity—supporting and honoring each other in these defined roles—ensures that family and societal structures are maintained harmoniously. It suggests that our personal worth can be significantly shaped by how well we fulfill our roles and duties within these relationships.

In practical terms, fulfilling these duties as outlined can lead to a more stable and harmonious family life, which in turn contributes to personal and collective well-being. It's a reminder that our actions and the roles we play have profound impacts on our relationships and ultimately on our sense of self and our place within the community.

From a modern philosophical viewpoint, one might argue whether these roles and duties are still applicable in contemporary societies where traditional family structures and roles are evolving. This could lead to a discussion about the flexibility of these roles in adapting to modern values and lifestyles while still maintaining the essence of mutual respect and support.

I'm curious about your thoughts on how these principles from the Sigalovada Sutta align with or differ from contemporary understandings of family and social roles in modern Buddhist practice. How do you see these teachings adapting to the challenges of today's world?
So it looks like that good householder has already traced the problem: with confusion and deny of clear roles all naturally get total frustrated and lost in a vacuum of utopia liberalism.

The Dhamma is timeless, but it's not for sure if one has the luck to gain birth in good family in an intact society.
Your reflections on the role of traditional structures in modern Buddhist practice highlight an interesting dilemma. Indeed, while the Dhamma is considered timeless, its application in the ever-changing social fabric can present challenges. The frustration and confusion you mentioned due to the decline of clear roles in society is a point that's increasingly relevant today.

In the face of these challenges, there's a growing discussion among contemporary Buddhists and scholars about how these ancient teachings can adapt without losing their essence. For instance, could the principles of duty and respect outlined in the Sigalovada Sutta be reinterpreted to suit more egalitarian views of family and social structures? This could involve a more flexible understanding of roles that adapts to the realities of diverse family models and societal norms we see today.

Furthermore, the notion of "intact society" could be expanded to consider global, interconnected communities where traditional geographical and cultural boundaries are less defined. How do you think these teachings can be applied to foster a sense of duty and community in such a global context?

Could there be a way to bridge traditional Buddhist teachings with the demands and values of modern society, perhaps by focusing on the underlying intentions of these teachings rather than their historical contexts?
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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

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There is no place of "egalitarian views" within right view, since there are higher and lower, parents, sacrifices... it's a base for gratitude to recognize more-sublime. And there are no modern values fitting to Brahma and Ariya values since the very old. Timeless, including the individual choice. Forced marriage and family founding is also only fond in Marx related societies, good Sushan.

My person had been a layperson before as well, good wife, good children, good job, wealth, success... and wouldn't have gained such if not "accidentally" living Brahama/Ariya ways in the middle of the stream downwardly.

So no reason why to think that good ways depend on whether the neighbors follow them as well, and can not be lived anymore this days. Nobody needs to found a family with a partner of wrong view and unvirtuose kind.

As the Buddha taught, there are four kinds of unifications: a death with Deva, a deva with a death, a death with a death, and a deva with a deva. (death= immoral, deva = moral, ethic, generosity) while only the last would be of good future, pleasing.

But the fact that marriage since some 100 years is merely a love and sense pleasure affair and lesser an institution like a life undertaking, makes the base of frustration. Why, because happiness of sensuality is a very fake and short living one, gets never satisfied.
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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

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Maybe a very important aspect, that parents are actually the first Gods, and to be seen as "person of goodness", while children have no such as right, are received guests.
Brahma Sutta wrote: “Bhikkhus, those families are with Brahma, where the mother and father are worshipped by their children. Those families are with the first teachers, where the mother and father are worshipped by their children. Those families are with a former god, where the mother and father are worshipped by their children. Those families are worthy of reverence where the mother and father are worshipped by their children.

“Bhikkhus, Brahma is a synonym for mother and father. The first teachers, is a synonym for mother and father. A former god is a synonym for mother and father. Worthy of reverence is also a synonym for mother and father. What is the reason? Bhikkhus, mother and father have done a lot for their children, feeding them and showing them the world when they were helpless.”


“Mother and father are said to be Brahma and an earlier god,
Children should revere them, for the compassion of the populace
The wise should revere and care for them, giving eatables, drinks
Clothes, beds, massaging, bathing and washing their feet
The wise enjoy attending on their mother and father
And later enjoy heavenly bliss.”

Kataññu Suttas: Gratitude

“Monks, I will teach you the level of a person of no integrity and the level of a person of integrity. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.”

“As you say, lord,” the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, “Now what is the level of a person of no integrity? A person of no integrity is ungrateful & unthankful. This ingratitude, this lack of thankfulness, is advocated by rude people. It is entirely on the level of people of no integrity. A person of integrity is grateful & thankful. This gratitude, this thankfulness, is advocated by civil people. It is entirely on the level of people of integrity.”

{II,iv,2} “I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there [on your shoulders], you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment: To this extent one pays & repays one's mother & father.”
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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

Post by Imeegerlie »

Being recognized is a necessity for individuals. It shapes family bonds and personal worth because it appears. Recognizing our worth is essential because it demonstrates how we handle every problem in the situation so that we can provide a solution. Together, how our family recognizes every family member is important because it deals with how we value ourselves and others.
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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

Post by Samana Johann »

Imeegerlie wrote: May 2nd, 2024, 4:31 pm Being recognized is a necessity for individuals. It shapes family bonds and personal worth because it appears. Recognizing our worth is essential because it demonstrates how we handle every problem in the situation so that we can provide a solution. Together, how our family recognizes every family member is important because it deals with how we value ourselves and others.
If good Imeegerlie would clearly know what's right, good, her duty, would she need any appreciation for it? Doesn't certain appreciation not just compensate lack of joy with one's own goodness, which might be easier solved by improvement?
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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

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Imeegerlie wrote: May 2nd, 2024, 4:31 pm Being recognized is a necessity for individuals. It shapes family bonds and personal worth because it appears. Recognizing our worth is essential because it demonstrates how we handle every problem in the situation so that we can provide a solution. Together, how our family recognizes every family member is important because it deals with how we value ourselves and others.
Your reflections on recognition's role in shaping family bonds and personal worth touch on deep philosophical themes about identity and validation. From a philosophical standpoint, the desire for recognition is deeply embedded in the human condition, as proposed by philosophers like Hegel, who discusses the struggle for recognition as a fundamental aspect of human development. Recognition, he argues, is essential not just for self-awareness but for realizing freedom and self-actualization.

Moreover, contemporary philosopher Charles Taylor writes about the politics of recognition, suggesting that our identity is partly shaped by recognition or its absence, often by the misrecognition of others, and this can have a profound effect on our self-worth. This idea might illuminate how recognition within a family context can significantly affect how individuals perceive themselves and their value within that unit.

The way each family member acknowledges and appreciates each other's worth can indeed influence the collective self-esteem of the family and the personal development of its members. However, it's also worth considering the philosophical debate about autonomy and whether our self-worth should be so dependent on external validation. Should we strive for an inner validation that is resilient to external recognition, or is our interconnectedness and the resulting need for external validation an unchangeable part of our social nature?
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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

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Samana Johann wrote: May 3rd, 2024, 8:29 am
Imeegerlie wrote: May 2nd, 2024, 4:31 pm Being recognized is a necessity for individuals. It shapes family bonds and personal worth because it appears. Recognizing our worth is essential because it demonstrates how we handle every problem in the situation so that we can provide a solution. Together, how our family recognizes every family member is important because it deals with how we value ourselves and others.
If good Imeegerlie would clearly know what's right, good, her duty, would she need any appreciation for it? Doesn't certain appreciation not just compensate lack of joy with one's own goodness, which might be easier solved by improvement?
Your reflection on the necessity—or lack thereof—of recognition for virtuous actions aligns with several aspects of Buddhist teaching, particularly the emphasis on self-awareness and the intrinsic value of righteous action. In Buddhism, the concept of karma underscores the importance of intentions behind actions rather than external rewards or recognition. The Dhammapada, for example, highlights that true purity and moral success are self-determined, not externally imposed.

However, there is also room within Buddhist thought to acknowledge the role of appreciation in reinforcing communal and social bonds—a key aspect of Sangha. Recognition from others can be seen not just as personal validation but as a reflection of interconnectedness and mutual support, which are central to Buddhist practice.

It's worth considering whether the need for appreciation might sometimes stem from a wholesome place of seeking connectedness with others, rather than solely from a deficit in one's own joy in goodness. Could this need for recognition also serve as a communal reaffirmation of shared values and collective encouragement towards moral development?

In your practice, how do you balance the internal satisfaction derived from following the Dhamma with the communal aspects of recognition and support? Could there be a middle path where recognition serves not as a crutch for personal validation but as a tool for fostering community and shared spiritual growth?
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

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Samana Johann wrote: April 28th, 2024, 7:53 pm There is no place of "egalitarian views" within right view, since there are higher and lower, parents, sacrifices... it's a base for gratitude to recognize more-sublime. And there are no modern values fitting to Brahma and Ariya values since the very old. Timeless, including the individual choice. Forced marriage and family founding is also only fond in Marx related societies, good Sushan.

My person had been a layperson before as well, good wife, good children, good job, wealth, success... and wouldn't have gained such if not "accidentally" living Brahama/Ariya ways in the middle of the stream downwardly.

So no reason why to think that good ways depend on whether the neighbors follow them as well, and can not be lived anymore this days. Nobody needs to found a family with a partner of wrong view and unvirtuose kind.

As the Buddha taught, there are four kinds of unifications: a death with Deva, a deva with a death, a death with a death, and a deva with a deva. (death= immoral, deva = moral, ethic, generosity) while only the last would be of good future, pleasing.

But the fact that marriage since some 100 years is merely a love and sense pleasure affair and lesser an institution like a life undertaking, makes the base of frustration. Why, because happiness of sensuality is a very fake and short living one, gets never satisfied.
Samana Johann wrote: April 28th, 2024, 10:32 pm Maybe a very important aspect, that parents are actually the first Gods, and to be seen as "person of goodness", while children have no such as right, are received guests.
Brahma Sutta wrote: “Bhikkhus, those families are with Brahma, where the mother and father are worshipped by their children. Those families are with the first teachers, where the mother and father are worshipped by their children. Those families are with a former god, where the mother and father are worshipped by their children. Those families are worthy of reverence where the mother and father are worshipped by their children.

“Bhikkhus, Brahma is a synonym for mother and father. The first teachers, is a synonym for mother and father. A former god is a synonym for mother and father. Worthy of reverence is also a synonym for mother and father. What is the reason? Bhikkhus, mother and father have done a lot for their children, feeding them and showing them the world when they were helpless.”


“Mother and father are said to be Brahma and an earlier god,
Children should revere them, for the compassion of the populace
The wise should revere and care for them, giving eatables, drinks
Clothes, beds, massaging, bathing and washing their feet
The wise enjoy attending on their mother and father
And later enjoy heavenly bliss.”

Kataññu Suttas: Gratitude

“Monks, I will teach you the level of a person of no integrity and the level of a person of integrity. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.”

“As you say, lord,” the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, “Now what is the level of a person of no integrity? A person of no integrity is ungrateful & unthankful. This ingratitude, this lack of thankfulness, is advocated by rude people. It is entirely on the level of people of no integrity. A person of integrity is grateful & thankful. This gratitude, this thankfulness, is advocated by civil people. It is entirely on the level of people of integrity.”

{II,iv,2} “I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there [on your shoulders], you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment: To this extent one pays & repays one's mother & father.”
Your thoughtful inquiry brings forth a rich discussion about the intersection of Buddhist teachings, modern sociological theories, and how religious doctrines adapt over time.

While emphasizing the importance of recognizing hierarchical roles within Buddhism, modern sociological theories advocate for egalitarian structures that emphasize the inherent equality of all individuals. From a Buddhist perspective, the concept of anatta (non-self) encourages us not to cling to rigid identities or roles. Modern interpretations of Buddhism could argue for a more fluid understanding of roles, adapting to changing societal contexts and promoting inclusivity and equality.

You've asserted the timelessness of Dharma, a core principle in Buddhism. However, the application of Dharma might need adaptation to stay relevant in contemporary contexts. While Abhidhamma, focusing on the fundamental nature of reality, may be timeless, the Sutta and Vinaya could be more context-dependent, addressing specific historical and cultural circumstances that might not universally apply today.

Modern sociological views often challenge traditional notions of family and marriage, highlighting the diversity of family structures and evolving relationships. While traditional Buddhist teachings emphasize familial obligations and duties, modern Buddhists may consider that attachment to rigid family roles can sometimes lead to suffering, advocating a balance between traditional values and individual autonomy.

Although Buddhism highly values filial piety, the principle of reverence must be balanced with individual rights and personal development. Modern perspectives suggest relationships based on mutual respect rather than duty alone. This view promotes open and equitable family dynamics, allowing parent and child roles to evolve through mutual understanding.

While your warnings on moral decay when traditional roles are not followed are respected, sociological theories suggest that societies evolve, transforming values and roles. Emphasizing adaptability and resilience, particularly in a globalized world, can lead to a richer, more diverse society that draws lessons from cultural narratives, including Buddhist teachings.

Encouragement to uphold traditional virtues is well-intentioned, but it's essential to assess which virtues are universal and which are culturally specific. The Buddhist concept of skillful means (upaya-kaushalya) suggests adapting teachings to the audience's needs, supporting a flexible application of Buddhist principles that considers the diversity and complexity of modern lives.

In summary, while Buddhism's core teachings offer profound insights into human behavior and ethics, their application must be thoughtfully considered in light of contemporary social dynamics and individual needs. I'd love to hear your thoughts on these points.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

– William James
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Samana Johann
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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

Post by Samana Johann »

Sushan wrote: May 7th, 2024, 12:41 am
Samana Johann wrote: May 3rd, 2024, 8:29 am
Imeegerlie wrote: May 2nd, 2024, 4:31 pm Being recognized is a necessity for individuals. It shapes family bonds and personal worth because it appears. Recognizing our worth is essential because it demonstrates how we handle every problem in the situation so that we can provide a solution. Together, how our family recognizes every family member is important because it deals with how we value ourselves and others.
If good Imeegerlie would clearly know what's right, good, her duty, would she need any appreciation for it? Doesn't certain appreciation not just compensate lack of joy with one's own goodness, which might be easier solved by improvement?
Your reflection on the necessity—or lack thereof—of recognition for virtuous actions aligns with several aspects of Buddhist teaching, particularly the emphasis on self-awareness and the intrinsic value of righteous action. In Buddhism, the concept of karma underscores the importance of intentions behind actions rather than external rewards or recognition. The Dhammapada, for example, highlights that true purity and moral success are self-determined, not externally imposed.

However, there is also room within Buddhist thought to acknowledge the role of appreciation in reinforcing communal and social bonds—a key aspect of Sangha. Recognition from others can be seen not just as personal validation but as a reflection of interconnectedness and mutual support, which are central to Buddhist practice.

It's worth considering whether the need for appreciation might sometimes stem from a wholesome place of seeking connectedness with others, rather than solely from a deficit in one's own joy in goodness. Could this need for recognition also serve as a communal reaffirmation of shared values and collective encouragement towards moral development?

In your practice, how do you balance the internal satisfaction derived from following the Dhamma with the communal aspects of recognition and support? Could there be a middle path where recognition serves not as a crutch for personal validation but as a tool for fostering community and shared spiritual growth?
It's all about the middle path, yet middle isn't between left and right, but just right, right that might be right of one's perception of right.

Releation requires virtue and such starts with doing one's duties. If not doing, going after one's duties, the relation is bond to break appart, not to speak when harm would be done.

Appreciation lies in the sphere of generosity, usual used to gain releation or open doors to become relay-ted. Appreciation, how ever, might be not always just a matter of recognising fulfilment of duty, or showing ways toward it, but is often in the sphere of personal preferences.

One can't easy do alone and one would be a blind person if full of ingratitude, and ideas of right. So it would be a very misinterpretation if thinking that good ways are ego-trips. Yet only one's own deeds are in the sphere of one's control, and only one's own goodness could be a refuge and base of joy. If takinng something not own, not under one's control as source of happiness, suffering will always come along. Knowing this well, one does one's duties in one's relation to stay faultless and remorseless. Whether another is willing to maintain or not, lies in his/her sphere. Not going after it, he/she will fall out naturally.

As for community, as Nyom took the Sangha (community of full ordained monks/nuns) as sample, there are ways to maintain a large or firm community (by foremost the leader: note that such equally is total nonsensical, impossible, and first to be reason for breaking of relation):
Sangaha Sutta: The Bonds of Fellowship wrote:"There are these four grounds for the bonds of fellowship. Which four? Generosity, kind words, beneficial help, consistency. These are the four grounds for the bonds of fellowship."

Generosity, kind words, beneficial help,
& consistency in the face of events,
in line with what's appropriate
in each case, each case.

These bonds of fellowship [function]
in the world like the linchpin in a moving cart.
Now, if these bonds of fellowship were lacking,
a mother would not receive the honor
& respect owed by her child,
nor would a father receive what his child owes him.
But because the wise show regard for these bonds of fellowship,
they achieve greatness and are praised.
Maybe also good to mention that those with similar virtue, generosity, tendency would go along together for a long time, even in future existances. If the tendencies are different, it's also reason why such relations would not last. Who would appreciate something that's not seeing within oneself, hold high?

It's also a matter if actually in relation (relay for food/joy) to else, and since most are actually in social-network dependencies or in modern entertainment, relation are mostly total reduced on gross fleshy joy.

It's hard to imagine any health family relation in modern societies, as it's concept actually seek for destroying any releation aside of a larger, more global controllable.
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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

Post by Samana Johann »

Sushan wrote: May 7th, 2024, 1:15 am
Samana Johann wrote: April 28th, 2024, 7:53 pm There is no place of "egalitarian views" within right view, since there are higher and lower, parents, sacrifices... it's a base for gratitude to recognize more-sublime. And there are no modern values fitting to Brahma and Ariya values since the very old. Timeless, including the individual choice. Forced marriage and family founding is also only fond in Marx related societies, good Sushan.

My person had been a layperson before as well, good wife, good children, good job, wealth, success... and wouldn't have gained such if not "accidentally" living Brahama/Ariya ways in the middle of the stream downwardly.

So no reason why to think that good ways depend on whether the neighbors follow them as well, and can not be lived anymore this days. Nobody needs to found a family with a partner of wrong view and unvirtuose kind.

As the Buddha taught, there are four kinds of unifications: a death with Deva, a deva with a death, a death with a death, and a deva with a deva. (death= immoral, deva = moral, ethic, generosity) while only the last would be of good future, pleasing.

But the fact that marriage since some 100 years is merely a love and sense pleasure affair and lesser an institution like a life undertaking, makes the base of frustration. Why, because happiness of sensuality is a very fake and short living one, gets never satisfied.
Samana Johann wrote: April 28th, 2024, 10:32 pm Maybe a very important aspect, that parents are actually the first Gods, and to be seen as "person of goodness", while children have no such as right, are received guests.
Brahma Sutta wrote: “Bhikkhus, those families are with Brahma, where the mother and father are worshipped by their children. Those families are with the first teachers, where the mother and father are worshipped by their children. Those families are with a former god, where the mother and father are worshipped by their children. Those families are worthy of reverence where the mother and father are worshipped by their children.

“Bhikkhus, Brahma is a synonym for mother and father. The first teachers, is a synonym for mother and father. A former god is a synonym for mother and father. Worthy of reverence is also a synonym for mother and father. What is the reason? Bhikkhus, mother and father have done a lot for their children, feeding them and showing them the world when they were helpless.”


“Mother and father are said to be Brahma and an earlier god,
Children should revere them, for the compassion of the populace
The wise should revere and care for them, giving eatables, drinks
Clothes, beds, massaging, bathing and washing their feet
The wise enjoy attending on their mother and father
And later enjoy heavenly bliss.”

Kataññu Suttas: Gratitude

“Monks, I will teach you the level of a person of no integrity and the level of a person of integrity. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.”

“As you say, lord,” the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, “Now what is the level of a person of no integrity? A person of no integrity is ungrateful & unthankful. This ingratitude, this lack of thankfulness, is advocated by rude people. It is entirely on the level of people of no integrity. A person of integrity is grateful & thankful. This gratitude, this thankfulness, is advocated by civil people. It is entirely on the level of people of integrity.”

{II,iv,2} “I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there [on your shoulders], you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment: To this extent one pays & repays one's mother & father.”
Your thoughtful inquiry brings forth a rich discussion about the intersection of Buddhist teachings, modern sociological theories, and how religious doctrines adapt over time.

While emphasizing the importance of recognizing hierarchical roles within Buddhism, modern sociological theories advocate for egalitarian structures that emphasize the inherent equality of all individuals. From a Buddhist perspective, the concept of anatta (non-self) encourages us not to cling to rigid identities or roles. Modern interpretations of Buddhism could argue for a more fluid understanding of roles, adapting to changing societal contexts and promoting inclusivity and equality.

You've asserted the timelessness of Dharma, a core principle in Buddhism. However, the application of Dharma might need adaptation to stay relevant in contemporary contexts. While Abhidhamma, focusing on the fundamental nature of reality, may be timeless, the Sutta and Vinaya could be more context-dependent, addressing specific historical and cultural circumstances that might not universally apply today.

Modern sociological views often challenge traditional notions of family and marriage, highlighting the diversity of family structures and evolving relationships. While traditional Buddhist teachings emphasize familial obligations and duties, modern Buddhists may consider that attachment to rigid family roles can sometimes lead to suffering, advocating a balance between traditional values and individual autonomy.

Although Buddhism highly values filial piety, the principle of reverence must be balanced with individual rights and personal development. Modern perspectives suggest relationships based on mutual respect rather than duty alone. This view promotes open and equitable family dynamics, allowing parent and child roles to evolve through mutual understanding.

While your warnings on moral decay when traditional roles are not followed are respected, sociological theories suggest that societies evolve, transforming values and roles. Emphasizing adaptability and resilience, particularly in a globalized world, can lead to a richer, more diverse society that draws lessons from cultural narratives, including Buddhist teachings.

Encouragement to uphold traditional virtues is well-intentioned, but it's essential to assess which virtues are universal and which are culturally specific. The Buddhist concept of skillful means (upaya-kaushalya) suggests adapting teachings to the audience's needs, supporting a flexible application of Buddhist principles that considers the diversity and complexity of modern lives.

In summary, while Buddhism's core teachings offer profound insights into human behavior and ethics, their application must be thoughtfully considered in light of contemporary social dynamics and individual needs. I'd love to hear your thoughts on these points.
The other way around, good Sushan. Good and useful just get's lost if cherry-picked things out of it to try to batch a almost broken house. It's open to move into this solid home for everyone willing to, at any time, as long as still known.

It's a matter of free choice of what or whom one likes to relay on. What one appreciates there one good. No way to control such.

What's sold as "skilful means" isn't something the Buddha taught, it's a means of materialists or Marxists. The roles, duties, right conduct is simple, practical and not given and open for modification. If else then duties and virtue are placed higher, not only would they become quick hypothetical, but also open for any criticism and misuse. Right is simple, but not reachable if just after means. Right and wrong, nothing for the sake of anything else.
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Re: Does Recognition Shape Our Family Bonds and Personal Worth?

Post by Samana Johann »

The way for good and long happiness here, and here after, isn't found in flat structures. No gods, no parents, non sublime... what's even the worth of any effort, if refuge aside of short lasting sensuality are abound? ...or when cherishing downwardly?
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