Not Art

Use this forum to have philosophical discussions about aesthetics and art. What is art? What is beauty? What makes art good? You can also use this forum to discuss philosophy in the arts, namely to discuss the philosophical points in any particular movie, TV show, book or story.
Fleetfootphil
Posts: 277
Joined: May 25th, 2012, 9:33 pm

Re: Not Art

Post by Fleetfootphil »

I see the "suffer for art idea" as totally bogus. Who cares what you put into it- heart, soul, whatever. That has nothing to do with anything. Nor do deprivation, solitude, sexual escapades, isolation, bohemian lifestyles and the rest of the artistic dogma. All you really need is a human brain/mind and, possibly, some materials.
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13828
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Not Art

Post by Belinda »

I agree with Fleetfootphil that what he describes is what art is. There is no mystique. Art is a dimension of human experience which may be described objectively in the style of anthropology or art history.

I submit that what Enio Anon describes is what we commonly call 'works of art'. I know that msot people in this discussion call art what I would prefer to call works of art, but unless we define our terms we will not move on.
Socialist
XavierAlex
Posts: 307
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 10:56 am

Re: Not Art

Post by XavierAlex »

There seems to be no agreement on what is art in this thread. I think the problem lies in that what was once art and had criteria for art no longer applies in a postmodern pop culture. As long as it sells as an artwork it can be claimed to be an artwork--despite our judgement of it. Some of the greatest songs were written in an hour or a weekend, so the idea that an artwork takes time isn't necessarily case. Perhaps an artist needs to practice for a long time before they create an artwork in a short period of time. To answer what is not art, there would have to be agreement, a sort of social contract, saying something is not art. Usually, there are a few consensual agreements on what is not art, because the group agrees it isn't. Most would argue that masturbation is not an art-form. But if it is agreed and SOLD as artwork--otherwise called erotica--then it is an art-form.

Here's a question: are documentaries art? Or are they truth? Or both?
Fleetfootphil
Posts: 277
Joined: May 25th, 2012, 9:33 pm

Re: Not Art

Post by Fleetfootphil »

Documentaries could be art, hell, anything could be art. Are they truth? Rarely. Usually, they are a reflection of something, although they will always be truth in the sense of being themselves. But that is not the same as truth in their expression of documenting an existing thing.
User avatar
Misty
Premium Member
Posts: 5934
Joined: August 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Not Art

Post by Misty »

[quote="XavierAlex wrote,

Here's a question: are documentaries art? Or are they truth? Or both?[/quote]


Documentaries are sometimes art, truth, both, lies, neither!

When a child I saw a local trash collector truck with this written on it: "Your trash is my bread and butter". Art is all about perspective.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13828
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Not Art

Post by Belinda »

Fleetfootphil wrote:Documentaries could be art, hell, anything could be art. Are they truth? Rarely. Usually, they are a reflection of something, although they will always be truth in the sense of being themselves. But that is not the same as truth in their expression of documenting an existing thing.
I agree with Fleetfootphil and Misty and I would like to comment on their ideas. Documentaries are a medium for expressing both facts and feelings. By virtue of skillfully epressing feelings with a goodly admixture of sincere and courageous truth any documentary is a work of art. The documentary is an example of an art form. Nobody could deny that a documentary can ever be 100% objecticvely true; but then, no knowledge about an event is ever 100% true.You would have to be God to make a 100% true documentary.
Socialist
Fleetfootphil
Posts: 277
Joined: May 25th, 2012, 9:33 pm

Re: Not Art

Post by Fleetfootphil »

But then people like Michael Moore don't even try to do truth, they just make up stuff so their documentary will appeal to those who have similar viewpoints and to persuade those who don't that they are wrong- while raking in a personal fortune.

I read a short story last night in which the author said art's responsibility is to show truth to power because everyone else is too frightened. I can see that as almost desirable but but not credible and, in the end, just plain false. People like Moore show lies to power and everyone else. Art is not about truth, it's about art.
User avatar
Misty
Premium Member
Posts: 5934
Joined: August 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Not Art

Post by Misty »

A little bit of truth, mixed into a bunch of lies, is just enough to fool many.
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
Hughsmith23
Posts: 167
Joined: February 3rd, 2013, 5:57 pm

Re: Not Art

Post by Hughsmith23 »

Belinda wrote:I agree with Fleetfootphil that what he describes is what art is. There is no mystique. Art is a dimension of human experience which may be described objectively in the style of anthropology or art history.

I submit that what Enio Anon describes is what we commonly call 'works of art'. I know that msot people in this discussion call art what I would prefer to call works of art, but unless we define our terms we will not move on.
Just because art 'may be described objectively in the style of anthropology or art history' it does not follow it has no mystique. In fact, if you were to read a book of the anthropology of art, you would not be experiencing art; at least, the book would be making no attempt to provide an artistic experience. You could argue that the experiential core of artistic experience is the experience of mystery. The reason I keep looking at paintings and reading books and listening to music is because there is something 'left over' in them, which I don't understand. This is a bit like Burke's sublime. If there is no mystique, and art is only a 'dimension of human experience', what distinguishes from other dimensions of human experience? If nothing, then you must dismiss it is a category of human experience all together. If it is possible to analyse something as a social glue, it does not mean that something is a social glue; in fact, the reason it functions as a social glue, is that it disguises its function. If no one experienced at as mystique, or beauty, there would be no art. Anthropologists describe marriage, but they also get married, and they do not confuse the two experiences, though they may inform each other.

-- Updated February 3rd, 2013, 6:27 pm to add the following --
Fleetfootphil wrote:I see the "suffer for art idea" as totally bogus. Who cares what you put into it- heart, soul, whatever. That has nothing to do with anything. Nor do deprivation, solitude, sexual escapades, isolation, bohemian lifestyles and the rest of the artistic dogma. All you really need is a human brain/mind and, possibly, some materials.
The 'suffer for art idea' can be read, reasonably I think, in historical terms. There are some periods, particular ones of upheavel, where to become a skilled artist is a sacrifice - it is necessary to life a bohemian lifestyle because there is no social structure which provides training, encouragement, any market. Similarly, because art is expressive, it is more likely to be problematic in relation to one's family background; if you start drawing pictures of your naked mother, your father may not like it, and may stop giving you pocket money. If you obey your father and repair his car on Monday, he will be less angry at you. The 'all you really need' argument fails to account for diversity in artistic expression - its range, from great, to rubbish. I don't mean that art is a choice of suffering, but some people who have chosen art have suffered as a result; social exclusion, poverty, familial exclusion.

-- Updated February 3rd, 2013, 6:31 pm to add the following --
XavierAlex wrote:There seems to be no agreement on what is art in this thread. I think the problem lies in that what was once art and had criteria for art no longer applies in a postmodern pop culture. As long as it sells as an artwork it can be claimed to be an artwork--despite our judgement of it. Some of the greatest songs were written in an hour or a weekend, so the idea that an artwork takes time isn't necessarily case. Perhaps an artist needs to practice for a long time before they create an artwork in a short period of time. To answer what is not art, there would have to be agreement, a sort of social contract, saying something is not art. Usually, there are a few consensual agreements on what is not art, because the group agrees it isn't. Most would argue that masturbation is not an art-form. But if it is agreed and SOLD as artwork--otherwise called erotica--then it is an art-form.

Here's a question: are documentaries art? Or are they truth? Or both?
Do you mean by saying that great songs are written quickly that historically, this 'art is made quickly' thing has not happened before? Its likely that many of the most famous poems were written quickly; in fact, the format of a short poem seems designed to reflect a short period of composition (10 lines, 14 lines... - particularly after say 1600). Also, market forces have always been behind a lot of art; Dickens, Balzac, many novelists wrote because they wanted their writings to sell, so that they could live. So I am not sure you characterised postmodern pop culture as distinctive.
XavierAlex
Posts: 307
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 10:56 am

Re: Not Art

Post by XavierAlex »

Fleetfootphil wrote:But then people like Michael Moore don't even try to do truth, they just make up stuff so their documentary will appeal to those who have similar viewpoints and to persuade those who don't that they are wrong- while raking in a personal fortune.

I read a short story last night in which the author said art's responsibility is to show truth to power because everyone else is too frightened. I can see that as almost desirable but but not credible and, in the end, just plain false. People like Moore show lies to power and everyone else. Art is not about truth, it's about art.
I agree with mostly everything here. However, I bring up the documentary because I think they are rhetorical in most cases. And dishonest too. But here's where I differ. I think in film truth is most found in fiction. In cinema, there are expressions, like in music, moments in film, like moments in music, that are more true than the cut-and-paste argument of a documentary. More truth in a movie (or play) like Glen Garry Glen Ross than in Fahrenheit 911. (One pet peeve I'm trying to get over is "Based on a True Story"--which I believe is just a selling point). It can be hit or miss with Hollywood though, because it churns out lies upon lies.
Hughsmith23
Posts: 167
Joined: February 3rd, 2013, 5:57 pm

Re: Not Art

Post by Hughsmith23 »

XavierAlex wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


I agree with mostly everything here. However, I bring up the documentary because I think they are rhetorical in most cases. And dishonest too. But here's where I differ. I think in film truth is most found in fiction. In cinema, there are expressions, like in music, moments in film, like moments in music, that are more true than the cut-and-paste argument of a documentary. More truth in a movie (or play) like Glen Garry Glen Ross than in Fahrenheit 911. (One pet peeve I'm trying to get over is "Based on a True Story"--which I believe is just a selling point). It can be hit or miss with Hollywood though, because it churns out lies upon lies.

Certainly fiction is more likely to succeeding in representation truth mimetically (e.g. by imitation). Documentary makes no attempt to represent life mimetically - e.g. fiction tries to the mirror the form of a life, from beginning to end. Documentary tries to give information about a life, rather than to turn life into form. Fiction is more real. Of course, if we went back and recategorised certain art forms in light of the rising concept of 'documentary' some realistic fiction might be considered documentary. In Herman Melville's Moby Dick, there are pages of description of the natural history of whales - does that make it documentary?
XavierAlex
Posts: 307
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 10:56 am

Re: Not Art

Post by XavierAlex »

Moby Dick is epic. Its portrayal of whales I would classify-I guess- as undergirding the narrative. Call documentary you could, but its larger in scope than documentation.

I've seen certain documentaries claiming to be authentic truth, some don't, but many make that pretense. So I don't think documentaries just plainly give information. There is editing, directorial and production choices. I am highly critical of them like I am of 'reality tv'.

-- Updated February 3rd, 2013, 9:15 pm to add the following --

Also much fiction doesnt entertain to represent life. I feel nowadays life is imitating fiction more so. Its a very classical notion to believe that art imitates life. I would say that in a global political system where presidents are in film and actors are politicians, a postmodern blur or effect occurs that is more of the absurd and surreal.
Fleetfootphil
Posts: 277
Joined: May 25th, 2012, 9:33 pm

Re: Not Art

Post by Fleetfootphil »

Fiction has freedom to explain the expanses of life while documentary, if being true to its subject, is necessarily limited.
XavierAlex
Posts: 307
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 10:56 am

Re: Not Art

Post by XavierAlex »

Fleetfootphil wrote:Fiction has freedom to explain the expanses of life while documentary, if being true to its subject, is necessarily limited.
This is true. A good documentary will use those limits though. I'm thinking not of the Michael Moore kind, but the PBS BBC kind. In this sense, however, I see it as journalistic and not necessarily as art. If PBS is interviewing physicists to explain time, then whether it is true or not, fiction or not, art or not, seems less important.

But one stark example of documentaries v films is The Doors, the film. Many claim Jim Morrison and the Doors were not like how they were in the film. Oliver Stone had invented Jim Morrison, so to speak; while a documentary of Jim Morrison showed a much different person, and more tragic than Stone's portrayal.

If you have seen The Doors, the film, it is a good film, but untrue to the life of its characters for the sake of art. My question is, if Jim Morrison is much different than the one in the documentary, which is better to believe as truth?

The actual truth may be not as important to the iconic and legend in the fictional film.
Fleetfootphil
Posts: 277
Joined: May 25th, 2012, 9:33 pm

Re: Not Art

Post by Fleetfootphil »

Yeah, I get that about Jim Morrison and the movie. There is a cliche that, paraphrased, says when confronted with a truth or a fiction about a topic, believe the one that makes the better story. I suspect that is how we get folklore and the like, even Biblical stories. Probably, way back, someone or something unusual occurred and in the retelling it became embellished to the point that it became almost axiomatic. The better story lasts longer and presumably contains more lessons.

Journalism is different from art, as are medical healing and a few other personal-career categories, like militarism. Sadly, in our present state of affairs, journalism has slipped in its ability to remain neutral and simply present information for consideration. The delivery apparatus of current journalism has coupled it with amusement and entertainment, but we all know that. I expect it will clean itself up before long.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of the Arts and Philosophy in the Arts”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021