The Origin of evil
- Ranvier
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Re: The Origin of evil
- Socrateaze
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Re: The Origin of evil
That's more or less what it boils down to, except maybe for the fact that, as I say, the less fortunate: People who do things, which we describe as evil, "torture, rape, theft and murder," may have an inferior "evil" inside them or none at all. I don't believe evil, when I'm talking about hosts, are passed on when they die. Again, it is in our DNA, or rather, again, has pro-biological and -cosmological evolutionary origins. It is certainly not some immortal force that "jumps" from host to host, but ... our children might inherit it through the knowledge we impart on them as well as our wealth. In other words; I would rather prefer calling the evil we seem to be discussing here self-destructive behavior or anarchy a force that consumes itself and harms its environment. Well established evil, if I may repeat myself, would seek to increase its comfort and personal peace. It seems only natural that the evil that indwells us would want this. The rapist and murderer might be "evil in torment" or a soul without genius, that has no enlightenment to guide itself to a healthy mental and physical life-style. And if genius evil does commit atrocities, it would certainly not do it in such a fashion as to disturb or harm its inner peace. That's why people get other people to fight wars for them, etc. Or even better, they are the ones who sit untouchable and unaffected in their mansions, obliviously enjoying the advantages of others doing things for them, perhaps even shedding a tear for the poor souls lost in wars. Ignorance is bliss and money and good environment seems to be the only thing that can provide you with that luxury.Ha! Love the prose
What I'm hearing is that evil ⩰ self-interest. I think people usually associate evil with sadistic sociopathy. Maybe that could be first degree evil? From there we might work down the degrees until we reach the dispassionate "steamrollering" self-interest you described above.
The common element between degrees of "evil" is the objectification of living, feeling things, which is a necessary mindset for any predator to survive. a predator that hesitates through a sense of kinship with other living things is not one to survive and pass on its genes. So we humans necessarily have this capacity to "switch off" our empathy in the presence of certain stimuli. The law of averages suggests that some people will be more prone to predatory objectifying mindsets than others.
- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
- Ranvier
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Re: The Origin of evil
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Re: The Origin of evil
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Re: The Origin of evil
???Ranvier wrote:This thread is amazing! It nips the entire notion of universal morality because we can't even define evil. Is there evil at all?
There are no ontological universal moral Laws, e.g. from a God or whatever.
There is also no ontological evil [by Satan, jinn, ghosts, etc.] like what is claimed by theologians.
But for a Moral and Ethical Framework and System to work effectively we [all humans] need to establish absolute Moral Laws as a team as guidance to maintain what is 'good'.
To understand what is good, we need to understand what is evil at least conceptually.
To do so we need to define what is 'good' and 'evil' to ensure our Moral and Ethical Framework and System works effectively.
"Evil" is any human act or thoughts that is net negative to the well being of the individual and therefrom the collective.
There are degrees of evil from low [e.g. petty crimes] to high [e.g. genocides, mass rapes, etc.] We need to establish some kind of a rough taxonomy of evil as a guidance.
'Good' can be defined in contrast to 'evil' and vice-versa.
So there you have it, universal absolute moral laws reasoned [by the individuals as a collective] out for guidance and a definition of evil within a Moral and Ethical Framework and System that can work effectively.
- Ranvier
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Re: The Origin of evil
- Sy Borg
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Re: The Origin of evil
Only subjectively. Objectively there is growth and decay, promotion and destruction. I liked your comment earlier about evil being the flipside of the good - night and day, Yin and Yang. However, I use see evil as sickness and immaturity, and goodness as healthfulness and maturity.Ranvier wrote:This thread is amazing! It nips the entire notion of universal morality because we can't even define evil. Is there evil at all?
In the end everyone is simply doing the best they can, having at some stage been dumped unceremoniously into this life, clueless, terrified and screaming. It's easy to lose one's way in life. That's how I see those who are generally considered to be evil. They are incomplete, damaged.
I admit that this is based on the highly speculative premise that life, reality, the world, existence or whatever is fundamentally good. It's my one belief, my philosophical "guilty pleasure". It's not based on hard evidence, given how power and ruthlessness tend to be richly rewarded at this stage of our development. I intuit that humanity, through all of its blunderings, debasements, vandalism, sadism, selfishness and recklessness can potentially be "better", perhaps as the experienced adult you is better than the child version.
- Socrateaze
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Re: The Origin of evil
I agree that we have no free will and are mindless, but are all these discussions not pointless then? It seems we're not only without mind or will, but doomed to inflict mindlessness on others. That sounds pretty grim indeed. It sounds like puppets fighting. Is this forum Sesame Street? I wonder who we are entertaining, someone, no one? I can't decide which of the two last options are more disturbing. Furthermore, if we have no fee will, how can we come to any conclusions about evil. Suppose the true origin of evil is out there, how will we find it if we have no free will?Ranvier wrote:Naive utopia. You can enforce laws but not morality, especially in a naturalistic reductionist reality. On our current path, we strive to become emotionless pragmatic mindless... machines. Everything is meaningless, we're nothing but a collection of random matter with fake concept of consciousness and free will. Nothing matters, there is no good or evil... no morality needed. Did you read all the posts in this thread?
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- Ranvier
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Re: The Origin of evil
- Socrateaze
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Re: The Origin of evil
Yes, this is true. I just want to know, if we do not have free will, how can we be sure that any thoughts are accurate? There are many discussions if we are real; but let's take it a step further. If free will does not exist, how can we be sure of anything? Is our intelligence even real, or is it just something that works because of something else? I don't believe in the concepts of good and evil, especially evil. Good at least can mean pleasant or peaceful, which is tangible concepts, but evil is not a tangible concept and seems to have emerged from a more abstract plain of thought. But if free will does not exist, it means our thoughts are not our own, so how can we pride ourselves in discussions like this? Then our thoughts are purely environmental and evolutionary. If we have no say in our free will, who or what are we speaking? If we are speaking for a universe that is unintelligent from which we came, all our thoughts may be hogwash, yet we are programmed to feel or deem it important. It reminds me of the man in the cave looking at the shadows against the wall, that cannot turn around to see what's really happening. The frightful truth is that, since we have no free will, none of us may be right or even be able to perceive the true problem. Or at the very least none of us can ever truly be original. And though I do not believe in free will at all, the fact that I do not have it bothers me for these reasons. Lastly, there may be a redeeming quality to not having free will; can it be that the very fact that our thoughts are not our own, can make them more accurate? All of the reverse can also be true, and that gives me hope. Because when you and I are speaking, it is not us, but age old evolution.Ranvier wrote:Morality, if it exists, can emerge only from within not from the outside. Therefore, there can't be objective morality until all evil "understands" an error of conviction. Good can't fight evil because it becomes evil itself. I perceive mindlessness and lack of "free will" as a defense mechanism to deny the ugliness of the truth. We can't know right from wrong, only an outcome of choices that is favorable or not. Everything must "play out" for us to understand.
- If you can paint the wind, I will tell you the secrets of the soul.
- Ranvier
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Re: The Origin of evil
-- Updated August 9th, 2017, 4:43 am to add the following --
*acknowledge
- Socrateaze
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Re: The Origin of evil
You touch on a very true point there; our experience certainly does affect our thinking. As I said today to a friend in a letter, (mailing it the old fashioned way), what is inside us is what matters. People and things will always try to break us down and detract from what we could be. Perhaps one of the origins of evil is giving up and let the world shape us instead of us shaping the world. Perhaps true evil is to surrender to the oppressor.Ranvier wrote:Sound reasoning. I can't tell you what's evil or even that there is such a thing as evil, unless you knowledge it for yourself. The same is true with free will, it must make sense to you either way in your own deduction. You can imagine anything you want without boundaries, then ask yourself what caused you to imagine whatever came to your mind. Our thoughts determine who we are, not the other way around, although our experiences do affect how we think.
-- Updated August 9th, 2017, 4:43 am to add the following --
*acknowledge
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- Jacqueline Sheehan
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Re: The Origin of evil
- LuckyR
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Re: The Origin of evil
You are half right. Greediness is a prime driver of actual evil deeds but greed in isolation is not evil. In order to have evil there must be an obligation to act cooperatively and then (perhaps through greed) break that obligation.Jacqueline Sheehan wrote:The origin is just animals from my point of view. We were born with the ability of being evil. The greeds, anger and foolishness. I don't think we have to learn how to be greedy, angry and foolish. Those are just the emotions and feelings that we were born with. And all these things lead to evil deed. Thus, I think the origin is just inside of us.
- Ranvier
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Re: The Origin of evil
2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
2023 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023