What do we lose when we believe?
- Whitedragon
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What do we lose when we believe?
No body is perfect, Christian or atheist; often it is a real struggle to live responsibly, but certainly God understands that there are somethings in life we can't avoid and many Christians know this too. So if you're a good person, treating your fellow man fair and trying to take care of yourself and others, not to live recklessly, endangering your life or other's; what do you have to lose by becoming a Christian or to believe in God. What do we actually lose when we are already doing everything right - do we lose anything at all by believing? How does believing detract from your life if you are already a good person? No one can prove God's existence, but hey, if he's there, what do you have to lose?
I hate the god the world showed me and it took a long time for me to build a relationship with God, the real God, the way I think we aught to see him. Now that I have sifted through the BS and have found my own path, I can't but help to wonder; what do we have to lose?
- Albert Tatlock
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
It's not quite as simple as that. I mean how do you go about believing something you find unbelievable and what's the incentive to make the effort?Whitedragon wrote: what do you have to lose by becoming a Christian or to believe in God
- Whitedragon
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
That's why it's called faith, because you have to believe. You say it's not that simple, why not? We indulge in many things in life, that are far less meaningful, but it entertains our whims and yet the only thing it satisfy is our fancy. The incentive is, what if it's true? What does believing take away from you? and if it's true, there is so much to gain. If we have room for fantasy movies with fans that buy the costumes and live out that fantasy, (probably a bad comparison); what is wrong with beginning to accept at least the teaching and getting into it gradually? You have to admit that you don't lose anything from believing if you're already a good person, will believing in God short circuit something in our brains all of a sudden, or would it just be something harmless, with not other intention, but providing you with a means to expand on your good life and possibly, (if there is an afterlife {whatever that means}), allow you to "cash in" on the good decisions you've been making all your life? Again, what do you lose, nothing; it may be inconceivable to believe in something you struggle with, but it's even more inconceivable to gable with that, if it could be true and it doesn't harm you or ask you to change the life you're already living.Albert Tatlock wrote:It's not quite as simple as that. I mean how do you go about believing something you find unbelievable and what's the incentive to make the effort?Whitedragon wrote: what do you have to lose by becoming a Christian or to believe in God
- Albert Tatlock
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
In order to have faith in something you need to be convinced of it. I can only think of two reasons why one would become convinced of something. Either the evidence for it is overwhelming or the desire for it to be true is. Without at least one of those criteria being there, then neither will faith be. I know that if you believe in God it's a big deal, but if you don't, it's not even an issue.Whitedragon wrote:
That's why it's called faith,
- Whitedragon
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
Do we need evidence? Again, what do you lose by taking a change? Personally, what would you lose? Can you name one thing that you would lose?Albert Tatlock wrote:In order to have faith in something you need to be convinced of it. I can only think of two reasons why one would become convinced of something. Either the evidence for it is overwhelming or the desire for it to be true is. Without at least one of those criteria being there, then neither will faith be. I know that if you believe in God it's a big deal, but if you don't, it's not even an issue.Whitedragon wrote:
That's why it's called faith,
- Albert Tatlock
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
You've made a case for the why but you haven't suggested a way to go about the how. How on Earth do you make yourself believe something you don't? It's not quite the same as making yourself do your weekly shopping even though you don't feel like doing it. You can make yourself do something in spite of not wanting to but you can't make yourself believe something in spite of not believing it.Whitedragon wrote:Albert Tatlock wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
- Whitedragon
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
I'm sure if you open yourself to it, it would change. Perhaps we don't believe, is because we don't try, (note I don't say never try). Some of us have tried and have had a soar taste in our mouths, mostly because of people or bad preachers; I had bad experiences too, but I just realized in the end, it's about me, not about how well the Bible explains itself, or how good others make me feel. I always say the important things in the Bible are easy too understand.Albert Tatlock wrote:You've made a case for the why but you haven't suggested a way to go about the how. How on Earth do you make yourself believe something you don't? It's not quite the same as making yourself do your weekly shopping even though you don't feel like doing it. You can make yourself do something in spite of not wanting to but you can't make yourself believe something in spite of not believing it.Whitedragon wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
Like I say, I'm quite sure once you open yourself to it, you will eventually believe. Belief has a lot to do with how we feel and experience things, and again, in this world, we more often than not have to re-discover things, because the way others represented it to us was bad.
I'm well aware you can't switch faith on and off like a light, but just like anything else we wish to have in life, like education and skill, we also have to work at faith. We certainly can't just decide we believe and it's certainly not something we can learn. I guess, it's a lot like the good attributes we acquire, compassion, empathy, love - we do have to work at that. Faith is more something you feel; the more time you spend searching for it the more you'll find yourself in tune with it and the more you'll find it inviting you in.
So no, you can't just flip a switch. I guess what I'm saying is, in light of the OP question: if you have nothing to lose, are you at least willing to open yourself to it and see if your emotions will convince you in time?
- Albert Tatlock
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
You're making me feel awfully mean for not giving it a shot but, honestly, I don't have it in me. Besides, if I started to believe in God at my age he would have serious doubts about my motives. I certainly don't think it's a bad thing that you find so much of value in having faith and it's to your credit that you want to share it with others.Whitedragon wrote:are you at least willing to open yourself to it and see if your emotions will convince you in time?
- Scribbler60
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
I gained a new respect for life. I gained a sense of wonder and awe at the natural world that I had previously put up to a divine superintelligence. I gained a deep appreciation for how tenuous, fragile and chaotic life is. I gained a new respect for those of different faith traditions and even skin tones.
For me, to go backwards into faith again - especially given that there's exactly zero evidence for the reality if any god, of whatever stripe - would be to repudiate all those things that I gained once I released myself from the shackles of faith.
So, what would I have to lose by becoming a man of faith again?
Everything.
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
Wow. We have polar opposite ideas of what constitutes "faith."Scribbler60 wrote:As one who spent a number of years wrapped in the cloak of Christianity, I can only tell you what I gained after I lost my faith.
I gained a new respect for life. I gained a sense of wonder and awe at the natural world that I had previously put up to a divine superintelligence. I gained a deep appreciation for how tenuous, fragile and chaotic life is. I gained a new respect for those of different faith traditions and even skin tones.
For me, to go backwards into faith again - especially given that there's exactly zero evidence for the reality if any god, of whatever stripe - would be to repudiate all those things that I gained once I released myself from the shackles of faith.
So, what would I have to lose by becoming a man of faith again?
Everything.
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
Some don't; some do. The route to whatever convictions one ends up with depends on the sort of mind one began with.Whitedragon wrote:
Do we need evidence?
You can't wish or will yourself to be other than you are. For many people, that is the central and final failure of the Judeo-Christian tradition: its central deity forbids people to be honest about their true nature. He is said to have made man in His own image, and yet punishes people for following their inclinations and using their attributes.
Not sure whether you mean "change" literally, or it's a typo for "chance".Again, what do you lose by taking a change?
In the first case, my self; my autonomy; my right to exercise rational thought and decision.Personally, what would you lose? Can you name one thing that you would lose?
In the second, perhaps my sanity - I would have to throw something vital away, and risk it not being replaces by anything of value.
Given that i have a satisfactory life, balanced thought-process and no empty hole in the middle of my psyche, and in the face of such a risk,
what do I stand to gain by the effort to believe?
- Atreyu
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
- Scribbler60
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
Well, that's interesting, because I have all that and more and at the same time I'm not saddled with the belief in a divine superintelligence for which there is zero evidence.Dark Matter wrote:I have faith because I have a sense of wonder and awe at the natural world; I have faith because I have a deep appreciation for how tenuous, fragile and chaotic life is. I have respect for those of different faith traditions and even skin tones because I have faith. If I needed evidence of God's existence, then I would have an inadequate concept of God.
But, hey, if your faith helps get you through the night, by all means, knock yourself out. Just don't suffer the delusion that those who have released themselves from the belief in things unseen and unsee-able have no sense of awe and wonder, because that's simply untrue.
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Re: What do we lose when we believe?
Dark matter doesn't have to make any effort or take a risk: his just faith comes as a freebie.
For those who don't "have faith", it would cost something. And there many possible outcomes.
You make the effort - you can succeed or fail.
If you succeed, you may gain something you value, or not; lose something you value, or not.
If you fail, you may gain something or lose something.
You don't make the effort, you may gain something or lose something.
And those are just the variations before we even consider the subject matter of the belief -
what, exactly, you are attempting to belie/believe in.
Beyond that are the further variations on the truth of whatever it is you're trying to believe.
And beyond that are the variations of what effect the truth - whichever it turns out to be, whether or not you discover it -
has on your belief or disbelief of it or in it.
The odds are too fraught to calculate,
but I've taken the salient factors into account before arriving at my present position on the issue.
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