Why do we exist?

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Pelegrin_1
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Pelegrin_1 »

We exist because one evolutionary path led to us, led to the existence of what we call ourselves: humans/Homo sapiens sapiens. That's the simplest and most direct answer. Anything more would have to deal with the mechanisms of evolution or more specifically the elements/details of the evolutionary path that resulted with humans coming into existence. But then, is that really a philosophical question, or is it an evolutionary science question?

"Why do we exist?" is not a philosophical question!
Spectrum
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Spectrum »

Stellan Hoekfelt wrote:Are we that sure that we exist, life comes from nothing as I see it, and letting the world come out from nothing is reasonably impossible and that makes us the same, impossible to exist or impossible to understand why we exist and then the reason to exist falls with that, as reachable knowledge. And if we exist so is that because we can do the impossible, and that is s a believe it a meaning in it self, if I can do the impossible then everything is possible when nothing is impossible instead of nothing is possible. And that may be the meaning of all, everything is possible!
'We exist,' God exists, that apple exists, etc.

But re Kant, "Existence is not a predicate"

"Exist" or "is" is merely a copula and by implication is always qualified [connected] to something.
"I" exists as a living human being. [btw, not a soul that survives physical death.]
As human beings we exist like other living things with an inherent [not teleological] 'purpose' and meaning. [inferred from empirical evidence].
Thus to exist efficiently humans [given a higher faculty of reason] need to understand its purpose and meaning then strive to align [flow] with it.

As human beings we also exist to play the 'language games' [Wittgenstein] to an outcome of thinking 'The possible is impossible' and 'The impossible is possible'. That 'something cannot come from nothing' is merely a resultant of the 'language games' we play which is driven by primal psychological impulse. The 'purpose' and 'meaning' of 'we exists' are also a result of the language games but these has to be justified within an empirical-rational reality.

While "humans exist" is by implication "copulated" [Latin cōpulāre, cōpulāt-, to join together, from cōpula, link.] with empirical-rational reality, 'God exists' is "copulated" with nothing of substance except human psychological impulses.

Thus while we are engrossed in a game, it is critical to be mindful we are playing games, i.e. we exist as the game of life with a game plan [not by a God but by ourselves].
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Razblo
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Razblo »

Pelegrin_1 wrote:We exist because one evolutionary path led to us, led to the existence of what we call ourselves: humans/Homo sapiens sapiens. That's the simplest and most direct answer. Anything more would have to deal with the mechanisms of evolution or more specifically the elements/details of the evolutionary path that resulted with humans coming into existence. But then, is that really a philosophical question, or is it an evolutionary science question?

"Why do we exist?" is not a philosophical question!
What is "we" in the sentence "why do we exist" surely can and is a philosophical question so I think "why do we exist" is also, or can be made so.
Pelegrin_1
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Pelegrin_1 »

Razblo wrote: What is "we" in the sentence "why do we exist" surely can and is a philosophical question so I think "why do we exist" is also, or can be made so.
Okay! So, if we, meaning those of us who ask the question, mean "Why do we exist" as in "we" being all of existence rather than just human existence, then I suppose you may well have a question without a definitive answer, and as such it could therefore possibly be approached philosophically. Nevertheless, I think a discussion of such, philosophically, would be futile task of philosophical acrobatics... perhaps a good act for practicing philosophical discussion, but with no possibility of a meaningful answer, at least not a meaningful "philosophical" answer.

So again, "Why do we exist", as homo sapiens, or even with respect to the existence of all things, is certainly a meaningful question, but I can't respectfully and logically see how it's a philosophical question. We just exist, in the sense of how we commonly define the word "exist", and there's nothing philosophical about "why we exist".
Jan Sand
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Jan Sand »

It should be considered that consciousness is not a simple on-off digital quality. Of course robots that walk and climb stairs have to be conscious of balance and direction and have internal calculations to make them capable. But probably there is nothing inside of them to wonder about beauty or sex or religion. So they are not conscious in those areas. Obviously something about consciousness has to be designed to create a sense of generalized consciousness. A living creature is designed to react to its environment or cease to live if it does not react properly. So even a one celled creature or a dandelion or a jellyfish has to have a built in reaction pattern to be aware of the problems of functioning properly. But a mushroom or the president of the USA who has no idea that global warming is a dangerous situation will not, at end, survive. And people that think that the best use of an atomic bomb is to blow up the world is basically as dumb as a mushroom. So consciousness is a variable quality. It has to be properly directed.
Pelegrin_1
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Pelegrin_1 »

Just realized that I took "we" in only one direction in the previous post, that being an extension to all of existence. However, of course it could also be taken in a much more reduced form, not "human existence" but just the existence of each and every one of us individually. But regardless, I still see no true philosophical question here, or at least not one that could have an answer that in any way generally applies, philosophically. Each of us exist because of some form of procreative act that led to our existence; procreation that could have taken place for any number of reasons, though most innately due to a biological drive to do so. Individually, those who contributed directly to each one of us coming into existence could give reasons such as for love, for an heir, by accident, to fix (in one way or another) the relationship between the two biological contributors, or etc, etc. And why we continue to exist, well because we've been sufficiently nourished (physically, psychologically) as well as protected, and have been able to stay healthy. I suppose there are avenues of philosophical debate within all of that, but it would seem to be very individual, personal. Perhaps it's just me, but I see philosophy as applying to more general, all-encompassing arguments, rather than something that applies to every individual differently depending on their personal "existence".
Jan Sand
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Jan Sand »

As some philosophers have indicated, philosophy frequently becomes deeply entangled in the nature of words themselves. Very simple words basic to communication can become traps of confusion and disarray. Two word, "why" and "is" can be huge stumbling blocks to clear thought, The strange relationship of "why" and "how" can be confused. "How", to a large extent questions methods and processes getting involved with mechanics and consequences. "Why" seems more directed to intent with the implication that there is a motivated intellect in control. The question of why we exist or what meaning life has has implications of both the processes of being alive and what the uses of life may be and to be not aware of how deeply these questions differ can split understandings in all sorts of ways. They are not interchangeable because the search for each is quite different so discussions in this area should be explicit as to what is being asked.
Pelegrin_1
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Pelegrin_1 »

Sounds like a very important clarification to be made, in particular by the intent of the OP, and then to have the occasional reminder of what that intent was, in case the discussion/conversation goes astray.

-- Updated Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:34 am to add the following --
Bebelle wrote:Have you ever felt that everything you do and will do is meaningless? That no matter how great you are at something you will never be truly important, and that's when you are good at something, because most of the time you are just average. So why should we live if our existence has no importance, if it is not going to make any difference in the world? No big changes, you are just one more person like many others.
Importance is relative. Existence, especially existence having identifiable life, is special in an of itself, as "life" appears not to exist so commonly in the universe. Life-forms that have developed much beyond the simplest are apparently even more special, and even within all such life-forms there is identifying variety and uniqueness, which makes each life even that much more special. Why should we exist and why do we exist are two quite different questions. But then there's also the question, which you actually seem to be asking: Why should we continue to exist (especially if we feel that our life, or life in general, has no importance)? But then, I think I've just given a reason for why we should treat life as something special, simply because it is something very special. It would seem a waste not to appreciate it for as long as one has it, and here of course I'm talking about living creatures that have the capacity to actually "appreciate" life beyond just living it instinctively.

But back to "importance". The importance of one's life will come from what you feel you have made of your life. But of course, one's importance can be felt internally or it can be something that others attribute to our life in how important they think or feel your life to be through their eyes or mind.

Often though, I believe that the "human problem" lies within the loss of a general appreciation for life itself. Humans have a long history of conjuring up Gods, and with that also creating some connection between ourselves and whatever God or Gods we have come to believe that exist. And in so doing, we've lost our connection with the natural world (lost in the sense of misplaced), and we fail to recognize the beauty and wonder of life and for humans the appreciation of treasuring life. Also, on top of all of that, I believe, is the concept that some religions have about an afterlife, which almost inherently reduces the appreciation for the life that we actually have. Humans need to get back to respecting life, treasuring it, and trying to find ways to truly live it to its fullness, and by doing so, I think we'll have the answer for "why" we should try to live or exist as long as we possible can; and why everyone everywhere around us should want to wish for the same.
Jan Sand
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Jan Sand »

As I have indicated, I have already lived a long life and still remain in good enough conditon to continue a bit. I appreciate this return to fundamentals since it seems humans often require something more than the rare gift to experience life itself. Almost all my relatives are dead as well of my friends and I live in a very decent and compassionate country that does not concern itself with dominating other countries but cares greatly about its citizens. For this I am most grateful. I see my life as an adventure with a beginning and an end and like any rabbit or dragonfly I delight in every day to see the sunrise and every night to see the stars.That is quite enough.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Chili wrote:For a scientifically-minded observer, watching you climb up, he will decide this is merely chains of cause-and-effect leading back to the big bang. There is no "agency" involved. Do you agree or disagree?

A hard scientist watching you will understand those events in terms of your constituent neurons, their constituent molecules, atoms, particles - as these interact with one another like dominoes falling over in a cascade / avalanche which began with the big bang if not before. I specifically asked CL since he has espoused a very hard-nosed hard-scientific approach to several issues.
I see you're quite confused about what I have espoused. There's a difference between reality being ultimately physical and the physical behaving in a unidirectional, mechanistic way, every time. Reducing everything to chains of cause-effect is not scientific. Living beings are immersed in complex interactions, constantly opening multiple paths, interwoven with other complex subsystems. Their processes are dynamic, dialectical, not linear and mechanical.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Jan Sand
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Jan Sand »

To deny cause and effect because direct lines of this are hidden by seeming many multiples of possibility is to assume that there is no way to puzzle out the four dimensional structure of our universe. It is to proclaim the reality of miracles and magic and destroy the absolute foundation of logic and our ability to have any control over natural forces. Since, not only science, but the ability to get through each moment of each day, depends on our security to understand that a reaction is the result of an understood action, the lack of that dynamic totally destroys our ability to exist.
Chili
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Chili »

Count Lucanor wrote: December 3rd, 2017, 9:32 pmTheir processes are dynamic, dialectical, not linear and mechanical.
Your hand waving is certainly not scientific. To say that things are in practice too complex to comprehend and control is different from saying there isn't underlying cause-and-effect. The whitecap jumps up in the ocean as uncountable waves come together but this nonlinearity doesn't mean that the waves of cause and effect haven't come together from their unmeasurably distant causes. The whitecap doen't have agency just because of that complexity. You use the language of agency and say it is justified by complexity. The devil is in the details.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Chili wrote: December 4th, 2017, 12:28 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: December 3rd, 2017, 9:32 pmTheir processes are dynamic, dialectical, not linear and mechanical.
Your hand waving is certainly not scientific. To say that things are in practice too complex to comprehend and control is different from saying there isn't underlying cause-and-effect. The whitecap jumps up in the ocean as uncountable waves come together but this nonlinearity doesn't mean that the waves of cause and effect haven't come together from their unmeasurably distant causes. The whitecap doen't have agency just because of that complexity. You use the language of agency and say it is justified by complexity. The devil is in the details.
Excuse me, where was that when I supposedly said that "things are in practice too complex to comprehend"? When did I say "agency is justified (or caused) by complexity"?
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Steve3007
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Steve3007 »

Chili:
...The devil is in the details.
I like that deliberately ironic choice of phrase to end the post here. Clearly the point of the post is that hypothetical conscious agents like devils are not in the details. Unconscious laws of physics combined with chaotic physical systems are.

It reminds me of another use of the devil metaphor: Maxwell's demon, in a thought experiment speculating about the violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

Interesting experiment:

https://phys.org/news/2016-02-physicist ... demon.html
Chili
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Chili »

Count Lucanor wrote: December 5th, 2017, 11:24 pm
Chili wrote: December 4th, 2017, 12:28 pm

Your hand waving is certainly not scientific. To say that things are in practice too complex to comprehend and control is different from saying there isn't underlying cause-and-effect. The whitecap jumps up in the ocean as uncountable waves come together but this nonlinearity doesn't mean that the waves of cause and effect haven't come together from their unmeasurably distant causes. The whitecap doen't have agency just because of that complexity. You use the language of agency and say it is justified by complexity. The devil is in the details.
Excuse me, where was that when I supposedly said that "things are in practice too complex to comprehend"? When did I say "agency is justified (or caused) by complexity"?
What else could your objections mean? Why else would it be significant that processes are "non linear" ?
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