Brain workings and freedom

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Felix
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Felix »

"Do you think we control the way the brain works to think?"

I presume you did that to construct (poorly) that sentence....
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Eduk
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk »

Firstly it is perhaps just that you are talking about a type of free will which doesn't, possibly, make sense? For example is the free will free to be free? Personally when we get right down to it I'm not sure I can properly define free will from this absolute perspective.

I don't see any special ethical ramifications though either way. Can you give an example?

Also I think it's more than fair to say you believe determinism is the most likely. But we exist, which under determinism is impossible. Therefore there can be something else, though what that something else might be is unknown.

Finally there is nothing wrong with not knowing something. Indeed in my experience most people would be more correct on a given subject if they said they didn't know.
Unknown means unknown.
kordofany
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by kordofany »

Thank you all of you for this is smart comments... english is not my native language hence i can't use long sentences. But i would explain my main point about this issue tomorrow. Thank you again.
Belindi
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Belindi »

CIN wrote: May 2nd, 2018, 2:11 pm I don't think bringing God into it would explain free will. I don't think bringing God in ever explains anything. When trying to explain something (free will, the existence of the universe, whatever) it isn't enough to point at some person who supposedly made it happen; we also need an explanation of HOW they made it happen, otherwise it's like accusing a man of murder without being able to say how he did it. You can't convict a man on that basis alone, because your explanation does not in fact explain.
Free Will cannot be explained naturalistically, which is why I introduced God as an example of a non-naturalistic, non-causal force. I personally, in my more rational episodes ,don't believe in God however I can see that God is an explanation among other ontological explanations
Eduk
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk »

You can't explain an unknown with an unknown. It's like me saying 'violet despair' explains free will.
Unknown means unknown.
Belindi
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Belindi »

Eduk wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 6:19 am You can't explain an unknown with an unknown. It's like me saying 'violet despair' explains free will.
There is nothing that is known for certain. "Violet despair" is not a powerful agent with intentions; God is a powerful agent with intentions.

Nothing is absolutely known to us. All we have are narratives. Some people like the narrative which involves an all powerful being who has intentions towards the world which this all powerful being created. In a free society each of us can choose his preferred explanatory story.
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Thinking critical
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Thinking critical »

kordofany wrote: April 28th, 2018, 10:42 pm Do you think we control the way the brain works to think? If the answer is no.. Do you think we're free?
Free will exists in hindsight, we can think back and acknowledge that we had the option to think, act, do something different......however at the time there are always reasons for our choices. A reason will always determine an outcome meaning free will is an illusion......but the illusion itself is real 8)
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
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Thinking critical
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Thinking critical »

Belindi wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 6:44 am
Nothing is absolutely known to us. All we have are narratives. Some people like the narrative which involves an all powerful being who has intentions towards the world which this all powerful being created.
so essentially each person can simply create their own god, as all theists do and abide by their own narrative?
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
Eduk
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk »

"Violet despair" is not a powerful agent with intentions; God is a powerful agent with intentions.
Why does it need to be? How come you add conditions to my definition of morality but not to other people's definition of morality?
Unknown means unknown.
Eduk
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk »

Apologies I meant free will not morality.
Unknown means unknown.
CIN
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by CIN »

Belindi wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 5:27 am I can see that God is an explanation among other ontological explanations
As I indicated earlier, I strongly disagree with this. God is not an explanation, because we do not know how he is supposed to do what he is supposed to do.

Many people seem to think that God counts as an explanation because he is omnipotent. However, this is not true. Consider this:

Task: explain how the bicycle came to move.
Answer 1: it moved because the cyclist pressed his foot down on the pedal, which transmitted energy to the pedal, this energy then being transferred by means of the chain to the wheels, which were then caused to revolve, which, because of friction between the wheels and the ground, caused the bicycle to move across the ground.
Answer 2: it moved because the cyclist was bicycle-potent (i.e. had the power to move bicycles).

Answer 1 is an explanation. Answer 2 is not. Saying that someone has the power to do something, which is all that can ever be said about God, is not explanatory.
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LuckyR
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by LuckyR »

CIN wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 10:08 am
Belindi wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 5:27 am I can see that God is an explanation among other ontological explanations
As I indicated earlier, I strongly disagree with this. God is not an explanation, because we do not know how he is supposed to do what he is supposed to do.

Many people seem to think that God counts as an explanation because he is omnipotent. However, this is not true. Consider this:

Task: explain how the bicycle came to move.
Answer 1: it moved because the cyclist pressed his foot down on the pedal, which transmitted energy to the pedal, this energy then being transferred by means of the chain to the wheels, which were then caused to revolve, which, because of friction between the wheels and the ground, caused the bicycle to move across the ground.
Answer 2: it moved because the cyclist was bicycle-potent (i.e. had the power to move bicycles).

Answer 1 is an explanation. Answer 2 is not. Saying that someone has the power to do something, which is all that can ever be said about God, is not explanatory.
Well, yes and no. To the intellectual non-curious, it is a placeholder for a "true" explanation. In other words dogma gives the believer something to vocalize when asked "why?"
"As usual... it depends."
Eduk
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk »

He is bicycle-potent might serve as a placeholder I guess. It's worse than saying unknown though right? I mean unknown and bicycle-potent convey the exact same amount of explanatory power (i.e. none) but bicycle-potent seems a like a way to pretend you know more than you do. Now pretending you know more than do could be a means of deceiving others (which is normally not great but can be depending on exact circumstances) or of deceiving yourself (which is even less likely to be justifiable than deceiving others).
Unknown means unknown.
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LuckyR
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by LuckyR »

Eduk wrote: May 3rd, 2018, 12:10 pm He is bicycle-potent might serve as a placeholder I guess. It's worse than saying unknown though right? I mean unknown and bicycle-potent convey the exact same amount of explanatory power (i.e. none) but bicycle-potent seems a like a way to pretend you know more than you do. Now pretending you know more than do could be a means of deceiving others (which is normally not great but can be depending on exact circumstances) or of deceiving yourself (which is even less likely to be justifiable than deceiving others).
IMO, the value is highest in self-deception, thus it is likely that rather than "I am going to substitute a non-reason for a true reason", the internal conversation is probably "cool, now I have this awesome reason!!".
"As usual... it depends."
Eduk
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk »

Self deception is normally detrimental though.
Unknown means unknown.
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