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Imagine

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Greta
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Re: Imagine

Post by Greta » May 4th, 2018, 12:04 am

Misrepresentations are no help at all
No help at all
No help at all
Misrepresentations are no help at all
And repetition is boring.

How can anyone (aside from conservative politicians with fossil fuel interests) NOT know the problems? It's akin to not noticing that there's a lot of technology around these days.

When did I ever claim that the biosphere's reformation would be pleasant, convenient or safe? Yup, we might all die pointlessly and horribly tomorrow. It's possible. There's always a risk that supervolcanoes, asteroids and other rogue objects, or nukes will prevent the Earth from being able to reproduce itself on other worlds via intelligent species.

Not all organisms get to reproduce either, and one can't presume that biology on living planets will reach its potentials and more than it can be presumed of a child. There are no guaranteed happy endings, only possibilities.

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Re: Imagine

Post by Jan Sand » May 4th, 2018, 12:28 am

Action follows understanding. It's quite obvious, from the lack of very energetic response, that most of the world does not accept that the end of everything is rapidly approaching. Until real panic becomes ubiquitous over this growing monstrous inevitability nothing effective will be done. Perhaps you are aware and are satisfied to accept the end of life on the planet as impossible to confront and struggle against but my reaction is quite different. I delight in being alive and believe there is still some possibility to stop this idiotic juggernaut that is set on killing us all. To know and accept that a fight is necessary is the first step and that is important. To be alive means to recognize that the enemy of life is simply death and to know that we all die at end does not imply that the fight is useless.

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Re: Imagine

Post by Greta » May 4th, 2018, 12:59 am

All of this was predicted half a century ago. I did my panicking and agitating up to around 2001, and around that time I noticed that the opinions of little people didn't matter any more, no matter how many there were. So why should I start panicking now when I've seen this coming since the 80s? Mmm? I've been there done that, it didn't work, and I figure that 25 or so years of ineffectual panicking is enough for me thanks very much. I hand over the baton.

Feel free to keep bailing cupfuls of water out of the sinking Titanic. I left that daisy chain a while ago so you'll now find me jamming with the band as it takes last requests.

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Re: Imagine

Post by Jan Sand » May 4th, 2018, 1:13 am

To give up to death is to deny the struggle to stay alive. There is still energy to be utilized. The fight is not done and I will not concede defeat. At 92 there s still much joy in the morning cup of coffee and a roll and the energies of evolution are not in defeating death but in the fight itself to remain alive. There is nothing more.

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Re: Imagine

Post by Greta » May 4th, 2018, 2:22 am

I also enjoy coffee and eating, among other things. Being in a panic tends to dampen the enjoyment of those things, though, so I prefer not to panic if I can swing it.

But how can you justify spending a single moment self-indulgently relaxing with coffee when there is a planet to save! Yikes! You should be out there every waking moment, fighting the good fight! To do otherwise is to give up! Don't stop now, Jan! Do you think being a mere 92 gives you the excuse to slacken off and start enjoying yourself for no good reason when the world is in such a state?? Tsk tsk tsk indeed. Alas, they don't seem to make old people like they used to :D

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Re: Imagine

Post by Jan Sand » May 4th, 2018, 6:40 am

I have no idea how old you might be, but just restocking my kitchen is stretching my physical limits so the least I can manage is to inspire bright people like yourself not to throw in the towel. Panic is quite energizing when properly directed.And unnecessary deprivation by not eating breakfast is just a weird form of useless torture. If nothing else, I might inspire second thoughts in you.

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Re: Imagine

Post by Jan Sand » May 4th, 2018, 11:42 am

There is a talk by Noam Chomsky which covers much of this current discussion. He is as disturbed as I am but he is far better informed on the inevitabilities and presents in a far better way what might be done. It is well worth the time to listen to. It is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yc-30_Dnx4

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Re: Imagine

Post by Greta » May 4th, 2018, 6:44 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
May 4th, 2018, 6:40 am
I have no idea how old you might be, but just restocking my kitchen is stretching my physical limits so the least I can manage is to inspire bright people like yourself not to throw in the towel. Panic is quite energizing when properly directed.And unnecessary deprivation by not eating breakfast is just a weird form of useless torture. If nothing else, I might inspire second thoughts in you.
I was just teasing, of course - you have surely paid your dues :)

Theists on other forums have often tries to inspire or shame me into being religious, and they regularly point out the great efficacy of their faiths to convince me to switch to "their side". Such efforts meet similar stony ground because they assume that others attend these forums for the same reasons as they do. People come to these forums for various reasons, with many hoping to promote their little causes or brainwaves.

I don't chat about life's deeper issues to save my soul or the world - I'm just curious, not much keen on small talk, enjoy having people test and question my ideas, plus a side interest in being more accepting of death and other things I can't control.

More than anything I want to know what is going on in the big picture - what is becoming and what stage we are at in that journey. For all we know, the Earth's life might be akin to an embryo, a foetus, a baby, a child, a teenager, a young adult, a mature adult, in decline or on death's door. In terms of potential growth and development, humanity could be any of these things.

So my attitude could probably be encapsulated as "Yes, we are all doomed, but that's okay in the long term". In terms of morality, I have simple tenets - to try to be kind and to operate with a light touch.

The dinosaurs were doomed and that turned out well, for nature is structured so that growth relies on destruction. Naturally, there are no guarantees. Wondering whether this current extinction event will turn out as positively in the long term as the Cretaceous–Paleogene event is akin to wondering whether any living system will manage to grow to maturity. Sometimes things works out, sometimes not.

I'll see the Chomsky video later.

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Re: Imagine

Post by Jan Sand » May 4th, 2018, 10:14 pm

As has been said, life is a crapshoot. But as long as we can throw the dice it's worth the try. Don't write off the dinosaurs. They lived for many millions of years while we have been around for only a couple of hundred thousand. Their great cities have crumbled into dust and there remains no evidence of the successful mass flight of their rocket fleet which moved the best of them to some more accommodating solar system but if we survive this current disease of idiots who have learned the delights of masturbating with finance to kill everything we may get to shake hands with their descendants.

My latest blog on the brain game at https://jansandhere.wordpress.com/ is an attempt to discern what we are about.

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Re: Imagine

Post by Greta » May 5th, 2018, 1:11 am

The dinos were a dead end. Size became the main advantage, but it's a terrible disadvantage when resources are tight. If they were abstractly intelligent like humans, they would not have lasted so relatively stably for millions of years, and long ago would have used up too much of nature and fled to safer places.

Humans will encounter a similar problem in that they are accustomed to high energy lifestyles. The masses that brought humanity its initial empowerment in nature are the ones in danger. The elites plus their circles are obviously at some risk, but FAR less. Imagine the scale of event needed to make Trump think twice about ignoring environmental concerns. It would need to be so many disasters of such magnitude that his own formidably insulated existence was impacted.

Nice blog and poetry. Your Coming Out poem reminds me of a thought that occurred to me - that we are thrown into this world confused, kicking and scream and not so much changes afterwards :)

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Re: Imagine

Post by Jan Sand » May 5th, 2018, 1:42 am

Admittedly the fragmented bones incarcerated in rock that testify to monstrous killing machines and some of their victims are persuasive but probably preservations of our current times, after millions of years, might , as well, testify to the dominance of cows and chickens which we produce in the billions and have a high probability of becoming fossilized. Nature is not very democratic in this type of rare preservation and, like the presence of a universal intelligence that might have clumsily assembled our universe out of an advanced hobby kit, we still need some actual evidence to accept firmly that possibility. There is much we do not know.

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Re: Imagine

Post by Greta » May 5th, 2018, 3:06 am

We are yet to find signs of dino technology :)

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Re: Imagine

Post by Jan Sand » May 5th, 2018, 3:15 am

Even a hacksaw or a hammer becomes interesting dust in a million years or two. Perhaps they were skilled in genetic engineering and created birds or our own small furry ancestors. Probably took their computers with them when they left.

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Re: Imagine

Post by Felix » May 5th, 2018, 5:05 am

Steve3007 wrote:But is there a role in life for this kind of hopeless idealism?
It seems much more hopeless now than it did back then. "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one" is becoming less true all the time.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: Imagine

Post by Jan Sand » May 5th, 2018, 5:21 am

It is hard to determine when and how a critical upsurge in mass awareness of an immense change in world opinion may arise but the possibilities of total obliteration from the most odd idiocies of those now in control of the world but it might be triggered by something well within the realm of expectations. The longer it is delayed, the more fierce the reaction will be. The anesthetics of information corruption will not withstand reality when it arrives in force.

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