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Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 23rd, 2018, 5:04 pm

chatterbears wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 3:31 pm
When people say "Humans have evolved to eat mostly meat, nuts and fruit.", this is false. Early human food cultures were plant-based. Major religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism have recommended a vegetarian way of life since their conception. You can find out more about early human cultures in this Journal: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/1 ... 6S/4576707
Simply rubbish.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 23rd, 2018, 5:07 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 5:04 pm
chatterbears wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 3:31 pm
When people say "Humans have evolved to eat mostly meat, nuts and fruit.", this is false. Early human food cultures were plant-based. Major religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism have recommended a vegetarian way of life since their conception. You can find out more about early human cultures in this Journal: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/1 ... 6S/4576707
Simply rubbish.
It's rubbish because I am talking about EVOLUTION. Not the last couple of thousand years of human culture.
Evolution works on millions of years, not a few centuries.

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chatterbears
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by chatterbears » May 23rd, 2018, 5:21 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 5:07 pm
It's rubbish because I am talking about EVOLUTION. Not the last couple of thousand years of human culture. Evolution works on millions of years, not a few centuries.
Gorillas, Chimpanzees, and Orangutans are herbivorous apes. Insects and meat make up a small proportion of their diet, estimated as 2%. While the common chimpanzee is mostly herbivorous, it does eat honey, soil, insects, birds and their eggs, and small to medium-sized mammals, including other primates.

If you actually read the journal I posted, very early cultures (thousands of years old) did not have a meat-based diet.

Egypt - Wheat, barley
China - Wheat, soya, sorghum
India - Corn, rice, wheat, lentils
Middle East - Wheat, chickpeas
Mexico, Mayas - Corn/maize, amaranth
Peru, Incas - Potatoes, quinoa

It is fairly clear that major early human cultures practiced a predominantly plant-based nutrition. But also, even if it were true that Humans were evolved to eat meat [which it is not], plant-based foods are objectively better for our health.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5638464/
"We humans do not need meat. In fact, we are healthier without it, or at least with less of it in our diets. The Adventist Health Studies provide solid evidence that vegan, vegetarian, and low-meat diets are associated with statistically significant increases in quality of life and modest increases in longevity."

https://www.eatrightpro.org/practice/po ... rian-diets
"It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage."

https://www.bda.uk.com/news/view?id=179
"British Dietetic Association confirms well-planned vegan diets can support healthy living in people of all ages"

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 23rd, 2018, 5:32 pm

chatterbears wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 5:21 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 5:07 pm
It's rubbish because I am talking about EVOLUTION. Not the last couple of thousand years of human culture. Evolution works on millions of years, not a few centuries.
Gorillas, Chimpanzees, and Orangutans are herbivorous apes. Insects and meat make up a small proportion of their diet, estimated as 2%. While the common chimpanzee is mostly herbivorous, it does eat honey, soil, insects, birds and their eggs, and small to medium-sized mammals, including other primates.

If you actually read the journal I posted, very early cultures (thousands of years old) did not have a meat-based diet.

Egypt - Wheat, barley
China - Wheat, soya, sorghum
India - Corn, rice, wheat, lentils
Middle East - Wheat, chickpeas
Mexico, Mayas - Corn/maize, amaranth
Peru, Incas - Potatoes, quinoa
FFS.
We are NOT evolved to cope with agriculture.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by chatterbears » May 23rd, 2018, 5:37 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 5:32 pm
FFS. We are NOT evolved to cope with agriculture.
Why is that relevant? Also, you failed to acknowledge the 2nd half of my post. Even if your statement of "we have evolved to eat meat" was correct, it is still objectively true that plant-based foods are better for our health AND the environment.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Greta » May 23rd, 2018, 5:42 pm

HobbesChoice wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 5:32 pm
We are NOT evolved to cope with agriculture.
We are evolved to eat non meat sources. Humans are not, and have never been, carnivores. They are scavenger omnivores. Four tiny canines reduced to near pointlessness tells the tale.

Humans are not evolved for agriculture, granted, but neither are they evolved to cope with clothes, soap, hygiene, laws, ethics or music.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 23rd, 2018, 6:00 pm

chatterbears wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 5:37 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 5:32 pm
FFS. We are NOT evolved to cope with agriculture.
Why is that relevant? Also, you failed to acknowledge the 2nd half of my post. Even if your statement of "we have evolved to eat meat" was correct, it is still objectively true that plant-based foods are better for our health AND the environment.
If it is not relevant, then why have you tried (and failed ) to refute it?

Are you REALLY asking why is it not relevant that we are eating food that our bodies have not evolved to eat? Have you ever asked why bread eaters get diabetes?

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 23rd, 2018, 6:02 pm

Greta wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 5:42 pm
HobbesChoice wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 5:32 pm
We are NOT evolved to cope with agriculture.
We are evolved to eat non meat sources. Humans are not, and have never been, carnivores. They are scavenger omnivores. Four tiny canines reduced to near pointlessness tells the tale.

Humans are not evolved for agriculture, granted, but neither are they evolved to cope with clothes, soap, hygiene, laws, ethics or music.
I don't eat soap or music.

Humans have always eaten meat. All pre-agricultural societies have valued meat above all other foods, and some human societies have thrived on little else but protein and fat. Carbs are the only food we do not need.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 23rd, 2018, 6:03 pm

chatterbears wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 5:37 pm
it is still objectively true that plant-based foods are better for our health AND the environment.
Wrong.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by chatterbears » May 23rd, 2018, 7:02 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 6:03 pm
chatterbears wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 5:37 pm
it is still objectively true that plant-based foods are better for our health AND the environment.
Wrong.
I mean, if you want to be willfully ignorant, that's up to you. But it is clear that the scientific consensus is; plant-based foods are optimal for health and environmental factors. At this point, it is like trying to argue with a flat earther or an evolution denier. Just because the science doesn't adhere to your narrative, doesn't mean you are justified in holding a stance against it.

I've already posted my Google Doc which holds all the sources for scenitific journals, as well as posted some individual journals regarding health (which you still asserted was wrong).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Posted it again. I have a "Health" and "Environment" tab, so you can look at both sides of the research. You can also google it yourself and look up scientific articles/journals that all point to the same data.

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chatterbears
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by chatterbears » May 23rd, 2018, 7:07 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 6:03 pm
Wrong.
Also. Do you have any counter-argument supported by the scientific literature? Or does your entire rebuttal consist of saying, "Wrong."? It's easy to flatly assert something without supporting evidence.

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-1-
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by -1- » May 23rd, 2018, 8:18 pm

I eat animals because they taste good. It has nothing to do with a hatred toward them, or wilful ethical misconduct. It is bad for the environment and my health, granted. I won't argue against that, I accept those negatives as facts. But I will keep on eating animals for the same reason as I eat chocolate, sugar, fat, salt, and freshly carved out, still steaming human brain. Grrr.
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by chatterbears » May 23rd, 2018, 9:11 pm

-1- wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 8:18 pm
I eat animals because they taste good.
Do you think this is a good justification for why you commit an action? And to further expand on that, would you accept that same justification for other actions?

Example:
A eats animals because they taste good.
C eats babies because they taste good.
D eats pregnant mothers because they taste good.
E eats all humans because they taste good.

You're position is letter A. But using your same justification, do you also recognize positions from C / D / E as morally acceptable? If you don't accept the position of C / D / E, then your position is inconsistent.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Greta » May 24th, 2018, 2:36 am

-1- wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 8:18 pm
I eat animals because they taste good.
You and probably half the world.

I'm looking forward to clean meats coming on the market. I have eaten about one chop in the last ten years because I'm trying to cut my fellow critters at least some slack - to eat no more of them than I need. I would pay a pretty penny for a tasty lab grown lamb chop, though :)

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by -1- » May 24th, 2018, 3:02 am

chatterbears wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 9:11 pm
-1- wrote:
May 23rd, 2018, 8:18 pm
I eat animals because they taste good.
Do you think this is a good justification for why you commit an action? And to further expand on that, would you accept that same justification for other actions?

Example:
A eats animals because they taste good.
C eats babies because they taste good.
D eats pregnant mothers because they taste good.
E eats all humans because they taste good.

You're position is letter A. But using your same justification, do you also recognize positions from C / D / E as morally acceptable? If you don't accept the position of C / D / E, then your position is inconsistent.
The same justification won't work for the examples you gave. I'll leave the work to you to figure out why the same justification can't work. Let me know if you can't work this problem out. I'll help.
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